Page 21 | Ukraine Invasion: Part 59

MagicFox · 2025-10-17T21:11:16+00:00

Well, it’s thread 59. Thanks to all regular contributors, especially those doing the daily hard work. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦 Agreed thread guidance: A. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events B. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content C. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful D. Please keep on topic

LlttledrummergirI · 08/12/2025 23:16

Instead European taxpayers used the money instead for things like Universal healthcare, welfare programs and generous state pensions- things that were not available to US taxpayers.

This is one of those lies being perpetuated to get and keep the MAGA crowd.
I think I understand your posts now.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/12/2025 23:18

The US could have chosen to go for Universal Healthcare - instead it's got the most expensive, uneven and ridiculous healthcare system possible, for a health care system that exists at all. You don't have to dig at all to discover how ridiculously overinflated the prices are because profit > all.

And the US has chosen, nay pushed, other countries into accepting it as leader. It's been more than happy to make decisions and override questioning voices (see France about the 2nd Iraq war, the one that was supposed to take place because of the non-existent WMDs).

Now European countries have allowed themselves to rely on the US and that was short sighted and foolish but let's not forget that the US chose to be the leader and to stand as guarentor for Ukraine and NATO.

Let's not forget that the US really wanted influence overseas, it wanted its troops in Europe and wanted to be able to station the nuclear weopons that it owns and maintains and (I think) has the final say over launching on UK soil, which makes the UK a target.

You're painting the EU as a parasite and yet the EU has supported the US in its own wars, some of which have been heinously unjustifiable, and has helped the US extend its influence. If the US is talking about responsibility, it need to start off with a good long look in the mirror at how it runs its own country. It could long have had a decent welfare system. It's chosen not to. That's on the US. I've noticed the Republicans love blaming the Democrats for Trump's election, which is as crazy as Putin blaming NATO for Russia's invasion. It's highly indicative of just how unable the Republicans as a party are able to do what they claim they want others to do - take responsibility for themselves.

Because right now the US is really good at avoiding responsibility for its own past actions, its current actions and the treaties and promises it's made. It's pretty much like Russia. Everything they think is wrong is everyone else's fault but their own.

And yes, the EU may walk away, or it may keep kowtowing to the US. But I absolutely guarentee you that if the EU does develop some dignity and independence - the US would blame them for that, too. Because the US want it both ways.

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 23:30

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/12/2025 23:18

The US could have chosen to go for Universal Healthcare - instead it's got the most expensive, uneven and ridiculous healthcare system possible, for a health care system that exists at all. You don't have to dig at all to discover how ridiculously overinflated the prices are because profit > all.

And the US has chosen, nay pushed, other countries into accepting it as leader. It's been more than happy to make decisions and override questioning voices (see France about the 2nd Iraq war, the one that was supposed to take place because of the non-existent WMDs).

Now European countries have allowed themselves to rely on the US and that was short sighted and foolish but let's not forget that the US chose to be the leader and to stand as guarentor for Ukraine and NATO.

Let's not forget that the US really wanted influence overseas, it wanted its troops in Europe and wanted to be able to station the nuclear weopons that it owns and maintains and (I think) has the final say over launching on UK soil, which makes the UK a target.

You're painting the EU as a parasite and yet the EU has supported the US in its own wars, some of which have been heinously unjustifiable, and has helped the US extend its influence. If the US is talking about responsibility, it need to start off with a good long look in the mirror at how it runs its own country. It could long have had a decent welfare system. It's chosen not to. That's on the US. I've noticed the Republicans love blaming the Democrats for Trump's election, which is as crazy as Putin blaming NATO for Russia's invasion. It's highly indicative of just how unable the Republicans as a party are able to do what they claim they want others to do - take responsibility for themselves.

Because right now the US is really good at avoiding responsibility for its own past actions, its current actions and the treaties and promises it's made. It's pretty much like Russia. Everything they think is wrong is everyone else's fault but their own.

And yes, the EU may walk away, or it may keep kowtowing to the US. But I absolutely guarentee you that if the EU does develop some dignity and independence - the US would blame them for that, too. Because the US want it both ways.

Edited

Seriously when European citizens and Governments are always so critical of the US and Trump in particular, then why on earth would you expect them to pay for the defence of Europe.

The reality like it or not is that the US under Trump is not going to continue funding Ukraine's defence. So the question you need to answer is what is genuinely more important to you:
A) Criticising Trump and the US or
B) Preserving the territorial integrity of Ukraine and preventing further loss of Ukrainian lives. Which in turn acts as the front line of defence for the rest of Europe.

PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 23:43

The reality like it or not is that the US under Trump is not going to continue funding Ukraine's defence. So the question you need to answer is what is genuinely more important to you:
A) Criticising Trump and the US or
B) Preserving the territorial integrity of Ukraine and preventing further loss of Ukrainian lives. Which in turn acts as the front line of defence for the rest of Europe.

Given the US is not going to continue funding Ukraine's defence, how is this an either / or?

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 23:43

@LlttledrummergirI

Exactly where is the lie that the US has historically been spending far more on defence as a percentage of GDP than the European NATO members?

Money that the US could have used for other domestic priorities whether that be universal healthcare or tax cuts, whichever the electorate chooses.

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 23:49

PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 23:43

The reality like it or not is that the US under Trump is not going to continue funding Ukraine's defence. So the question you need to answer is what is genuinely more important to you:
A) Criticising Trump and the US or
B) Preserving the territorial integrity of Ukraine and preventing further loss of Ukrainian lives. Which in turn acts as the front line of defence for the rest of Europe.

Given the US is not going to continue funding Ukraine's defence, how is this an either / or?

It's an either or as to what @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar sees as the greater priority for her. It worries me that particularly those on the left seem more interested in criticising Trump than they are about Ukraine.

And yes given the US is stepping away the choice for Europe is make some great speeches and watch Ukraine slide into the grasp of Russia or double defence spending now, if need be by buying US weapons to supply to Ukraine

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/12/2025 23:54

Seriously why?

Does doing the right thing depend on being flattered? Is integrity so shallow for the US?

Remember, the US chose to guarentee Ukraine's independence.

If the US has become so fragile that it can't cope with some very, very well earned criticism and because of that it's going to throw its own past treaties out, its own past courage and sense of what's right and actually what's in its own best international interests then I suggest you consider carefully exactly what sort of country it's become.

Few people on this thread are stupid and people publically play the game of sucking up to Trump because that's what's necessary. But don't expect that to happen here. People can see where the EU has failed historically and currently. But they can also see the destruction of checks and balances in the US; that the President can no longer be accountable for what he does in office; that the departments responsible for controlling corruption have been done away with; that people who dont do what Trump want get the boot. That Russia's playing the US for fools and comprehensively winning.

Under Biden the US didnt do enough, but it wasn't the shitshow it is now. EU heads keep mostly polite; they have to. But please don't expect us to admire the boot that we used to more or less march one step behind with and we more or less trusted, that is now busily kicking us in the face.

The reality, as you call it, is that the US is much more interested in doing business with Russia than working amicably with its previously trusted partners. It's blatantly obvious. The key now is to get as least awful settlement for Ukraine as possible and rearm, as the East of Europe is doing heavily, to try to prevent Putin launching his drones and soldiers and tanks that he's stockpiling.

PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 23:55

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 23:49

It's an either or as to what @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar sees as the greater priority for her. It worries me that particularly those on the left seem more interested in criticising Trump than they are about Ukraine.

And yes given the US is stepping away the choice for Europe is make some great speeches and watch Ukraine slide into the grasp of Russia or double defence spending now, if need be by buying US weapons to supply to Ukraine

Show quote history

I've no idea whether @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar is "on the left".

Do you have other information, or are you trapped in a circular argument whereby anyone who criticises Donald Trump must be "on the left" and it's awful that people "on the left" keep criticising Donald Trump?

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 09/12/2025 00:03

It's a desperate and simplistic need to decide if someone is left or right that sadly means valid points made on either side get dismissed just because someone wants to paint them red or blue. Perhaps American and UK political systems could grow up when they realise the nuance and shading can also be represented in politics. Political systems dont only have to be two party.

PerkingFaintly · 09/12/2025 00:10

1dayatatime · 23/11/2025 00:39

I don't disagree that Trump is a fuckwit and pretty much take this as a given.

But the reality is that this is a war in Europe and as such is a European nations problem yet European nations have historically and currently spend significantly less as a percent of GDP on defence compared to the US.

The US has been very clear that they see this as a conflict for Europe to solve with European military aid and have repeatedly said so. To June 2025 Europe has contributed $170 billion dollars of loans and free aid whereas the US has contributed $130 billion of free aid.

This is a defining moment for Europe- they either a) get their shit together and tell Zelensky that they will back him all the way or b) continue hang ring about brave Ukraine is, how evil Putin is but fail to take on full support for Ukraine because "well we'd rather spend the money on healthcare" - all the while blaming Trump.

Seriously when the US get involved in a conflict then they are criticised yet when they back away from involvement they are still criticised.

I genuinely think many posters are more interested in using the Ukrainian war as an opportunity to bash Trump
(god only knows there are so many other reasons to) than they are about preserving Ukrainian territorial integrity.

Show quote history

Yes, you've come out with this before. Eg this thread 23/11/2025 00:39:

I genuinely think many posters are more interested in using the Ukrainian war as an opportunity to bash Trump
(god only knows there are so many other reasons to) than they are about preserving Ukrainian territorial integrity.

Yep, you've got us.

We've been running these threads since before Trump was elected. Many of us have given money and huge amounts of time and effort to real-life support of Ukraine. Many of us have taken in Ukrainian refugees.

And we've done it all to bash Trump. Even though, as you say, there is no shortage of other reasons to bash Trump if that was one's motive.

Honestly, when you invent stories about other people,and then find yourself puzzled that your characters' fictional motivations don't make sense, it's probably time to revisit your inventions...

PerkingFaintly · 09/12/2025 00:11

Oh sorry, didn't mean to leave long quote in.

blueshoes · 09/12/2025 00:37

PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 21:27

I think: "Europe is not short of resources; it is short of political will and the Mindset to act." sums it up.

Yes, I agree to a considerable extent with that.

And I think Putin has got the measure of Europe as well.

sleepwouldbenice · 09/12/2025 00:49

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 23:43

@LlttledrummergirI

Exactly where is the lie that the US has historically been spending far more on defence as a percentage of GDP than the European NATO members?

Money that the US could have used for other domestic priorities whether that be universal healthcare or tax cuts, whichever the electorate chooses.

It’s already been pointed out to you that there are many reasons why this is the case, often driven by the desire of the US to dominate the western world

sleepwouldbenice · 09/12/2025 00:51

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/12/2025 23:54

Seriously why?

Does doing the right thing depend on being flattered? Is integrity so shallow for the US?

Remember, the US chose to guarentee Ukraine's independence.

If the US has become so fragile that it can't cope with some very, very well earned criticism and because of that it's going to throw its own past treaties out, its own past courage and sense of what's right and actually what's in its own best international interests then I suggest you consider carefully exactly what sort of country it's become.

Few people on this thread are stupid and people publically play the game of sucking up to Trump because that's what's necessary. But don't expect that to happen here. People can see where the EU has failed historically and currently. But they can also see the destruction of checks and balances in the US; that the President can no longer be accountable for what he does in office; that the departments responsible for controlling corruption have been done away with; that people who dont do what Trump want get the boot. That Russia's playing the US for fools and comprehensively winning.

Under Biden the US didnt do enough, but it wasn't the shitshow it is now. EU heads keep mostly polite; they have to. But please don't expect us to admire the boot that we used to more or less march one step behind with and we more or less trusted, that is now busily kicking us in the face.

The reality, as you call it, is that the US is much more interested in doing business with Russia than working amicably with its previously trusted partners. It's blatantly obvious. The key now is to get as least awful settlement for Ukraine as possible and rearm, as the East of Europe is doing heavily, to try to prevent Putin launching his drones and soldiers and tanks that he's stockpiling.

Agree with all this. Ie the criticism of Europe and how we’ve enabled the current situation, as well as the criticism of the US for its shift inwards

other posters don’t seem to be able to stomach criticism of their beloved country

dibly · 09/12/2025 01:07

I don’t know, it all feels so simplistic, Europe should have done xyz. The key difference with our continent is that Europe is made up of many countries, all with their own democracies. Some right leaning parties support more defence spending, some left leaning. But I have just as much say as what eg Italy spends its money on as I do the US (and not much more for the UK!).

i do loathe Trump, and fair play I love a bit of Trump bashing at the moment- because I’m so bloody angry. Call it adolescent if you like, but as I think Ducks pointed out above, the US had always revelled in their word leader status. So where has that gone?

The US has profited from many wars, almost bankrupting the UK until we paid lend lease off, and then we had a glorious few years before the US initiated global banking crisis, which for smaller countries was catastrophic. We’ve basically been in austerity since then; but the quid pro quo has always been that US is an ally in times of war. Well no more. If the US is going to force Ukraine into a terrible deal, while making grubby profit out of their misfortune, then they can stick NATO. I want the US to have no oart in it. No other civilised country jokes about land grabbing Greenland, or starts wars due to non existent WMD. I’m just fucking done with the US after this.

PerkingFaintly · 09/12/2025 01:41

And even with saying all that @dibly , would you make @1dayatatime 's story come true?

If a fairy gave you the magical choice of
"Preserving the territorial integrity of Ukraine and preventing further loss of Ukrainian lives,"
but you'd lose the opportunity for further
"Criticising Trump and the US"
for their current actions towards Ukraine... would you choose to prioritise "Criticising Trump and the US" above Ukraine?

(It's not a trick question, and I'm not having a pop. I'm just asking because IIUC that is what @1dayatatime claims we would do.)

Natsku · 09/12/2025 07:37

I'd kiss Trump's arse if it actually meant Ukraine would be safe and intact.

I'd have to have a really long sauna and shower afterwards and scrub my mouth with bleach.

dibly · 09/12/2025 08:04

Natsku · 09/12/2025 07:37

I'd kiss Trump's arse if it actually meant Ukraine would be safe and intact.

I'd have to have a really long sauna and shower afterwards and scrub my mouth with bleach.

Same.

Underlying all of this is the sheer frustration- Europe doesn’t have the arms, but they have the will. And that’s what I find so disturbing- the US does have the arms but they’ve been content to slowly watch Ukraine get decimated and their people die, on a point of principle.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 09/12/2025 08:43

Euhm, the US has thrown its principles out in the adoration of the God-King Trump's ego.

It's not only Putin behind all this though by a very long shot. If the media, Murdoch etc and now Musk had't been pushing all these lines -anti -EU, anti-immigration, pro-'poor us, everyone is taking advantage' for over forty years, we'd be in a very different position. Had they emphasised what EU membership delivered, what trade links between US and EU delivered, etc. If they'd pushed for a better health and welfare system in the US, I bet it'd be a lot closer to one.

I will agree that this is a Ukraine based thread and should stay so, though there have always been meanderings along the way.

But the US's betrayal of Ukraine (and increasingly Europe) is central to Ukraine's fate and loss of land. That's happening now.

It might be inconvenient for Americans to read this and out of respect for MissConductUSA I think some people have held back from from stating how deeply concerning the US's irrevocable actions now are.

If you're expecting that to be swept under the carpet, @1dayatatime , especially when you're playing sleight of hand to try to make it the EU's fault that the US is reneging on its promises and treaties, then Im afraid it's not going to happen.

Just as Putin demands that everyone kowtows to him, so does Trump. Just as the judiciary was brought to heel and Putin was placed above the law, so it's happened in the US. Anti-corruption measures were dismantled in Russia; it's happened now in the US. Russia is pushing women to have large numbers of children to replace the shrinking population, as is happening in the US. Just as hate is being harnessed in the service of political ends ... well, same happening in both places.

If I were you and cared about Ukraine and the cultural and societal and militaristic circumstances that allowed the invasion, Id take a long and careful look at what was happening at China, Russia and the US itself because right at this point the circumstances seem not all that dissimilar between the three of them. It seems to me that more Ukraines might happen with the course that the US has set.

1dayatatime · 09/12/2025 09:07

PerkingFaintly · 09/12/2025 00:10

Yes, you've come out with this before. Eg this thread 23/11/2025 00:39:

I genuinely think many posters are more interested in using the Ukrainian war as an opportunity to bash Trump
(god only knows there are so many other reasons to) than they are about preserving Ukrainian territorial integrity.

Yep, you've got us.

We've been running these threads since before Trump was elected. Many of us have given money and huge amounts of time and effort to real-life support of Ukraine. Many of us have taken in Ukrainian refugees.

And we've done it all to bash Trump. Even though, as you say, there is no shortage of other reasons to bash Trump if that was one's motive.

Honestly, when you invent stories about other people,and then find yourself puzzled that your characters' fictional motivations don't make sense, it's probably time to revisit your inventions...

Show quote history

Yes and I have been commenting on these threads before Trump got elected saying that it was very clear that Europe could not keep relying on US military aid for Ukraine and all NATO members (including Portugal, Spain and Italy) had to seriously step up their defence spending.

Although heavily criticised for their appeasement of Germany in the 1930s, Chamberlain and Daladier were no fools. They knew that Germany was expansionist and wouldn't stop but they also knew that in 1938 they were in no position militarily to stop Germany. So they bought time with appeasement in order to rearm, with the UK for example spending more on defence (as a% of GDP) from 1936 than Germany was.

Ukraine is the Sudetenland of today yet rather than use the time usefully to rearm, Europe seems unwilling to spend the money and the necessary cuts in health and welfare budgets to fund this.

Southernecho · 09/12/2025 09:12

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 23:01

I agree people aren't stupid and can see what is happening. US taxpayers have finally had enough paying for the defence of Europe when all along this should have been funded by European taxpayers.

Instead European taxpayers used the money instead for things like Universal healthcare, welfare programs and generous state pensions- things that were not available to US taxpayers.

Trump driven in my opinion by ego thought he could get a negotiated peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. When this has proved not possible the US are walking away, telling the Europeans to fund a European war.

Show quote history

No, Trump had enough, he has pulled the rug out out from under Europe, a good ally would have given Europe time to re arm, we do not have the industrial capacity to suddenly ramp up capacity.

I still have some knowledge of a large defence company, they have huge issues with skills, its not the money, its industrial capacity, its simply not there.

That the US doesn't have healthcare/pensions etc is down to the USA's political choices... i don't see Trump saying the monies saved will go on social programs, its going on tax cuts for the super wealthy & farm bailouts caused by his own batshit policies.

Trump isn't just telling Europe to fund a European war, he is actively working to ensure Ukraine cannot win and taking the side of the aggressor, in addition, his support for far right politics in UK and Europe, is actively undermining everything we hold dear.

1dayatatime · 09/12/2025 09:12

Natsku · 09/12/2025 07:37

I'd kiss Trump's arse if it actually meant Ukraine would be safe and intact.

I'd have to have a really long sauna and shower afterwards and scrub my mouth with bleach.

As would I.

But the time for that was years ago and unfortunately I think that opportunity has now sailed, Trump has walked away and no amount of ass kissing is going to get him back.

1dayatatime · 09/12/2025 09:18

Southernecho · 09/12/2025 09:12

No, Trump had enough, he has pulled the rug out out from under Europe, a good ally would have given Europe time to re arm, we do not have the industrial capacity to suddenly ramp up capacity.

I still have some knowledge of a large defence company, they have huge issues with skills, its not the money, its industrial capacity, its simply not there.

That the US doesn't have healthcare/pensions etc is down to the USA's political choices... i don't see Trump saying the monies saved will go on social programs, its going on tax cuts for the super wealthy & farm bailouts caused by his own batshit policies.

Trump isn't just telling Europe to fund a European war, he is actively working to ensure Ukraine cannot win and taking the side of the aggressor, in addition, his support for far right politics in UK and Europe, is actively undermining everything we hold dear.

Show quote history

A good ally would have given Europe time to rearm???

FFS Kennedy in the 1960s was saying Europe needed to spend more on defence as has every US President since - exactly how much time and how many warnings does Europe need?

https://warontherocks.com/2019/03/the-transatlantic-tussle-a-historical-case-study-on-how-to-handle-nato/

The Transatlantic Tussle — A Historical Case Study on How to Handle NATO

In a meeting at his Florida retreat, the president was clearly annoyed at what he saw as the U.S. allies’ failure to pay their fair share of the defense

https://warontherocks.com/2019/03/the-transatlantic-tussle-a-historical-case-study-on-how-to-handle-nato/

Southernecho · 09/12/2025 09:34

1dayatatime · 09/12/2025 09:18

A good ally would have given Europe time to rearm???

FFS Kennedy in the 1960s was saying Europe needed to spend more on defence as has every US President since - exactly how much time and how many warnings does Europe need?

https://warontherocks.com/2019/03/the-transatlantic-tussle-a-historical-case-study-on-how-to-handle-nato/

Show quote history

Ha in 1962 the UK the procured Polaris, we were paying around 6% of GDP on defence, France over 5%.
Europe was also being rebuilt follow WW2, with GDPs in the bin.

Germany was given tough military restrictions...

Then came the break up of the USSR.

We are where we are, Europe hasn't spent as it should off but it is now, we need the USA to still assist us, not ride off into the distance with our enemy.

I cannot quite fathom your defence of Trump/blaming Europe, its akin to blaming Ukraine/NATO for the current war.

notimagain · 09/12/2025 09:45

Morning........🤔

Have to say whilst I think POTUS is being (to put it politely) unhelpful I also agree with a lot of @1dayatatime 's input.

The priority for many UK/European governments (regardless of their political hue) has certainly not been defence..even back in Cold War days there were periods when training and/or facilities were compromised due financial constraints imposed from on high by national governments...

The assumption was if whatever shock Army rolled across the IGB one night the indiginous forces could survive and act as speed bumps fornlong enough to allow the cavalry to arrive before the bad guys got too far.....

If Trump has done one good thing it's to change that mindset...but it's a hell of a time to do it.

Western Europe does have the expertise to match the US when it comes to weapons production, problem is upscaling needs to be done PDQ and I'm still not sure many countries are really willing to do that.