Charlie Kirk dead

[Booneymil]

The last thread was taken down because of personal insults towards the man.

We should be able to have a thread about this news topic.

Report any insulting posts. Mumsnet can you please just delete the offending posts, instead of deleting the whole thread?

Thank you.

Charlie Kirk has died today. He was shot at a public talk that he was giving.

I didn't agree with everything Charlie Kirk said, but it was patently clear from his words and his life choices that no-one should be dehumanised. He reached out compassionately as well as vigorously debating viewpoints. He will be missed. The gloating from the left over his murder is very worrying: I used to be a lifelong Labor /Greens voter until they lost the plot and became violently misogynist and intolerant of honest debate. (BTW I'm Australian, so the spelling of 'Labor' is not a typo. And they're still not getting my vote until they stop being crazy. It wasn't always like this!)

Thank you

the last one struck me as being odd - but it seems like his argument is similar to those who want the human rights act changed in the UK. To give more context..

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1211129393271385&vanity=realCharlieKirk&http_ref=eyJ0cyI6MTc1NzU1MjEwMjAwMCwiciI6Imh0dHBzOlwvXC93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbVwvIn0%3D

If I met him, my major point of debate would be abortion. But I do not think anybody deserves to be killed for their views.

Based on the amount of blood immediately lost, and the fact he went into a fencing posture (suggesting massive brain stem injury), he was dead by the end of the video imo. That was a very precise lights-out kill shot from 200m away. The shooter knew what they were doing.

I disagreed completely with many of his views, but that doesn’t mean he deserved to be shot. All that this is done is make a martyr of the man, and the ramifications are going to be ugly.

But surely those are the scenarios that absolutely have to be put to abortion abolitionists? It's not a debating tool, it's the cold hard reality of where an absolute ban on abortions takes you. By all means, have a civilised debate about it, but don't pretend it can't happen or that it's somehow in bad taste to ask abortion proponents if they think that it's OK not to allow rape victims access to terminations.

Edited

I thought you were referring to Charlie!

Too bad you didn't post it in Politics, where it belongs.
Maybe with a link or two.

Based on the amount of blood immediately lost, and the fact he went into a fencing posture (suggesting massive brain stem injury), he was dead by the end of the video imo. That was a very precise lights-out kill shot from 200m away. The shooter knew what they were doing.

I agree.

I do not think anybody getting shot is ever all right, and I DO find it disturbing that this has happened.

I am disturbed by other things also.

I find it disturbing that a president allegedly has had ( extremely possibly ) unsavoury dealings with females in the past .

I find it disturbing that another man could think that a raped female child who gets pregnant should carry the result of that rape in its body.

How can those things EVER be representations of good wholesome conservative family values. I mean how. No logic on earth is going to convince me that any of that behaviour or thinking is ok.

Regardless of your political stance, you can’t claim that murder is okay when it’s someone you don’t like.

It’s also not okay to shoot someone because they have an opinion different to yours
I didn’t agree with a lot of what he said, but to be killed in such a brutal way is awful

Charlie and I are total opposites, but today a 31yo husband and father was shot and killed.

It’s awful. It’s murder. We don’t shoot people we disagree with.

Politics is getting so damn radical and blood thirsty on both sides it’s gonna have the opposite effect, people won’t want to get involved in debating or voting or raising concerns because of this, it’s bad enough with the social media police lambasting names and employees of someone they don’t agree with, but to shoot someone like that infront of their own children is just barbaric.

He held the belief that gun deaths were a necessary "cost" to protect Second Amendment rights. He was not a good person.

Kirk's primary significance is his fight against the neo-censorship that engulfed the Anglosphere post Trump 1.0. It was a combination of draconian social media censorship, mainstream media group think and the collusion of NGOs/quangos/government bureaucrats fighting against 'disinformation'. The trans issue typified the new rules of de-platforming, cancellation, demonetization, debanking and no-debate, but it was by no means the only topic subjected to the automated thought control that our new age of regulated social media ushered in. It's an extremely dangerous situation for the West, and as the latest Linehan episode has illustrated it's far from over.

I disagreed fundamentally with many of Kirk's positions, but the efforts set in motion to silence him were extraordinary and I don't think there are many public figures in the GC sphere who aren't taking pause.

You haven’t been paying attention to what Trump has been doing have you?

That is a horrible thing to say. Two little children lost their father.

I know you chose your words carefully but this is such an awful thing to say.

He was a father and stood for family values. If you knew anything about him you would know this - not just what one side of politics tells you what to think.

Lacking sympathy for him due to his views on gun control and abortion is different to saying that the actions of the shooter were justified.

He shouldn’t have been murdered, however he has so people are reacting to that. The level of sadness (or complete lack of) to the death of a stranger is personal. It does not mean they thought that it was right that he was killed.

I respect that he stood up for what he believed in - the importance of family values. He was measured and articulate and he will be missed.

When did he say that?

Surely it should be possible to be completely appalled at Kirk’s death and heartbroken for his family and friends but ALSO accept that this is the inevitable consequence of his beliefs? And to hope that some of the people who followed him might, just possibly think that maybe the collateral damage of the second amendment isn’t worth it….

I think it shows just how very low the bar is when someone is lauded as a good and decent person just because they were prepared to debate and defend their views without walking off in a huff.

I think his views were deeply unpleasant. Me and DP were talking about this earlier - and I think what @Elliania posted earlier is absolutely right. The more hate, lies, and division that is sown in society by Trump and his cronies, the more likely these type of events become.

Society has become binary and tribal. Tolerance and truth don’t matter to many. It’s all about beating “the other side”, no matter what the cost. Trump is doing some terrible things and when he doesn’t like the law, he just ignores it. People are living in fear and many feel disenfranchised- and then you add guns into the mix. It’s a cauldron of violence that’s bubbling over and events like today will just fan the flames of hate even more.

There’s also a deeply unpleasant irony in the fact that someone who was so blasé about gun deaths, dismissing even children’s deaths as necessary collateral, ended up being shot. But it won’t make the gun lobby think twice because they never think it will happen to them - their right to bear arms is more important than another person’s right to life.

No one deserves to be shot, no matter how awful their views are. I can’t imagine living in a society where this is a real possibility. I fear that Charlie Kirk’s death will just heighten the division further - just look at this thread as an example of the deep chasm between the left and right. We know nothing about the shooter or his motives but there are countless people here ranting about the “loony left”. The US is in a hell of a mess, and I fear more could lose their lives before this reaches boiling point.

No one should have to fear for their lives, even if they support controversial political views. No one deserves to be shot, even if they hold intolerant, misogynistic views.

The discourse on this is reminding me of the inconsistency of the flag-botherers in recent weeks. 'The flag of my tribe is harmless, celebratory and represents solidarity; the flag of your tribe is hostile, authoritarian and territorial.' No; either flags are benign or, in certain contexts, threatening, but you can't have it both ways. Ditto, 'throwing things at Nigel Farage = good; throwing things at Jeremy Corbyn = bad.'

Sadly, and scarily, western societies are becoming more sectarian. We are going to see more assassinations, more terrorism, more paramilitary groups forming. It may be someone you find deeply unsympathetic with loathsome opinions now but the next time it's likely to be someone you admire and endorse. It's going to be more important than ever to hold to the general principles and not to allow this latent 'the other side had it coming' vibe to sneak into the norm.

I'm sure he demonstrated compassion sometimes. People are complex, something most on this thread seem unable to grasp...🙄

Is it compassionate, though, in your view, to say that even 10yo rape victims shouldn't be allowed an abortion?

Is it compassionate to tell women that the Pill will automatically make them 'crazy and bitter'?

Is it compassionate to say that men understandably are not interested in 30yo women bc that is past a woman's prime? (Even tho he married a 32yo)

Is it compassionate to oppose lgb (not just t) roghts?

Is it compassionate to say that women shouldn't think about college unless they want a 'Mrs degree' (ie. Just go to get a husband)? (Tho his wife has an impressive degree herself)

He said this in 2023 “It’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment”

I agree totally w your view of Left's violent misogyny

However, don't you think it's misogynist at all to deny ALL abortion access to women, even preteen rape victims?

To say that women on the Pill are automatically 'crazy and bitter'?

That women over 30 are by default ',past their prime' so it's understandable if men aren't interested?

That women should only go to college to get a husband?