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Labour isn't working - Thread 6

1000 replies

TheNuthatch · 22/08/2025 15:23

A chat thread for those who don't like this Labour government. Labour isn't working.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

Previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5382194-labour-isnt-working-thread-5?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
EmpressoftheMundane · 30/08/2025 10:55

I was amazed by this podcast guest’s reaction to the Bell Hotel decision. https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/coffee-house-shots/id1101754136?i=1000724057455

She is a human rights barrister with Grays Inn, faculty at Kings College, and she asked to speak not as a lawyer, but as a citizen. She zoomed out from the particular legal question and predicted that we are seeing the formation of a “civil rights” movement.

That is the sort of framing I would expect from the folks behind the flags, or the truly far right. Not from a human rights lawyer. Not on a respectable mainstream podcast. The Overton Window is racing to the right. I am not entirely comfortable with it all. I blame Tony Blair and an activist judiciary for setting all this up. They were arrogant and maximalist in their demands and I fear we may reap the whirlwind in the counter reaction.

TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 11:02

TwoTierBbq · 30/08/2025 08:32

Omg next in reeves sights is lowering the threshold for small business to pay vat

Small business already struggling ,still recovering from COVID.
What happened to grow the economy.

@strawberrybubblegum no if small business is taxed more they will close or raise prices .

Edited

Well that's ruined my day! FFS
Seems Labour hate SMEs.

OP posts:
twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 11:04

TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 11:02

Well that's ruined my day! FFS
Seems Labour hate SMEs.

Of course they do. Aspirational and less likeky to have unions.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 11:07

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 11:04

Of course they do. Aspirational and less likeky to have unions.

How can they even briefly consider going after small businesses again after what we've seen since the budget.
I feel like throwing the towel in. What's the effing point 🤬.

OP posts:
twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 11:17

TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 11:07

How can they even briefly consider going after small businesses again after what we've seen since the budget.
I feel like throwing the towel in. What's the effing point 🤬.

Because if you aren't a publicly owned company you are the enemy!
Everything to be publicly owned, no individual wealth or owning of anything. Unless you are a member of Labour, then it's fine

LupaMoonhowl · 30/08/2025 11:27

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 11:17

Because if you aren't a publicly owned company you are the enemy!
Everything to be publicly owned, no individual wealth or owning of anything. Unless you are a member of Labour, then it's fine

Indeed and that is actually communism, not socialism.
But even Lenin thought that work brings dignity and that there should be no bread without work. Clearly children and the very elderly are excluded, but even most people with physical health ‘conditions’ can contribute some form of labour, however minimal.
In France, a family member with a disability works two weeks of each month, paid by the employer, the other two weeks are disability benefit. This gives him the dignity of work to his capability. He would be able to do that in the UK so would just sink into an abyss of helplessness and depression.
Unfortunately the actions of this government, like the NI hike and this new small business persecution, are making it difficult for young people to get entry level jobs which will have an enormous impact on their mental and then physical health and end up costing the dwindling number of taxpayers even more.
What a mess.

TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 11:44

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 11:17

Because if you aren't a publicly owned company you are the enemy!
Everything to be publicly owned, no individual wealth or owning of anything. Unless you are a member of Labour, then it's fine

Yet it remains a mystery to many on MN why people like me will vote for ANYBODY who can remove this shit shower from government.

OP posts:
TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 11:53

strawberrybubblegum · 30/08/2025 10:34

So that will mean more honest businesses going under, and an increase in the black economy then. The black economy which is already estimated to be £223billion, 11% of our GDP.

I do believe in 'don't attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity', but I also agree with @twistyizzy that it's getting harder and harder to believe it's just stupidity...

Edited

Yes agree. I too prefer the hanlons razor approach, but its getting more difficult by the day. I mean, how can they be that stupid? * *

OP posts:
Southwestten · 30/08/2025 11:54

I blame Tony Blair and an activist judiciary for setting all this up.

I guess it was during Tony Blair’s tenure that left wing placement/women were appointed to institutions - the National Trust, BMA, the Civil Service, as you say, the judiciary, the diplomatic service, the arts and also education (though has been run by the left for a long time).
Once installed dissent amongst the ranks is forbidden and they are very hard to shift.

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 30/08/2025 12:48

I’ve seen a poster refer to Rishi Sunak approvingly on the no. 5 thread. I agree.

I will never forgive the Labour MNers for what were relentless and frankly outrageous attacks on him and his wife. Mrs Sunak’s sin was being rich. And of course his was being married to her. All the bogus tax allegations and accusations of non-dom manipulation stank of racism.

Julen7 · 30/08/2025 13:18

Wishihadanalgorithm · 30/08/2025 10:11

DP and I were talking last night about the mood in the country. It feels like we are getting close to the time of the anti-Thatcher riots.

I don’t for a minute think a load of middle class business owners, parents of privately educated kids or landlords are going to take to the streets demanding death to Keir but there’s definitely a feeling that people have had more than enough.

The decision about the hotel in Epping is the start of it, I feel and this will be further manipulated by Farage, T Robinson et al.

Anyone else feeling like this?

Yes. I do think as well that the Epping ruling yesterday might be a defining moment. There is v much a narrative now of the govt v the people. Hard to see how Labour can come back from this.

Julen7 · 30/08/2025 13:18

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 30/08/2025 12:48

I’ve seen a poster refer to Rishi Sunak approvingly on the no. 5 thread. I agree.

I will never forgive the Labour MNers for what were relentless and frankly outrageous attacks on him and his wife. Mrs Sunak’s sin was being rich. And of course his was being married to her. All the bogus tax allegations and accusations of non-dom manipulation stank of racism.

Agree, Same actually happening with KemI now by some on mumsnet.

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 13:28

Julen7 · 30/08/2025 13:18

Agree, Same actually happening with KemI now by some on mumsnet.

Edited

Some Labour supporters have called her vile rascist names

MyNameIsX · 30/08/2025 13:29

Wishihadanalgorithm · 30/08/2025 10:11

DP and I were talking last night about the mood in the country. It feels like we are getting close to the time of the anti-Thatcher riots.

I don’t for a minute think a load of middle class business owners, parents of privately educated kids or landlords are going to take to the streets demanding death to Keir but there’s definitely a feeling that people have had more than enough.

The decision about the hotel in Epping is the start of it, I feel and this will be further manipulated by Farage, T Robinson et al.

Anyone else feeling like this?

Absolutely in agreement with you.

Similarly, DH and I were talking over coffee this morning. Our conclusion was - spend everything you have in your later years - and leave nothing behind. Scorched earth, if you will.

Good people like most of us on this thread, have had enough.

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 13:31

MyNameIsX · 30/08/2025 13:29

Absolutely in agreement with you.

Similarly, DH and I were talking over coffee this morning. Our conclusion was - spend everything you have in your later years - and leave nothing behind. Scorched earth, if you will.

Good people like most of us on this thread, have had enough.

Yep agree. What's the point of busting your balls just to be taxed even more?
They are now mooting lowering VAT threshold for small businesses 🙄

MyNameIsX · 30/08/2025 13:33

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 13:31

Yep agree. What's the point of busting your balls just to be taxed even more?
They are now mooting lowering VAT threshold for small businesses 🙄

I had not heard that.

Well, that will be the death knell for many SME’s, already facing very tough times.

I don’t have hatred in me, but I am getting closer every day, with this horror show of a government.

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 13:37

MyNameIsX · 30/08/2025 13:33

I had not heard that.

Well, that will be the death knell for many SME’s, already facing very tough times.

I don’t have hatred in me, but I am getting closer every day, with this horror show of a government.

It is 1 of their "leaked" proposals ie to test the water of public reaction

strawberrybubblegum · 30/08/2025 14:07

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 30/08/2025 12:48

I’ve seen a poster refer to Rishi Sunak approvingly on the no. 5 thread. I agree.

I will never forgive the Labour MNers for what were relentless and frankly outrageous attacks on him and his wife. Mrs Sunak’s sin was being rich. And of course his was being married to her. All the bogus tax allegations and accusations of non-dom manipulation stank of racism.

It's interesting: I think Left and Right have such different value systems that they both genuinely see the other side as racist and also genuinely don't consider themselves to be.

Values

Labour are driven by their hierarchy of privilege. Their value system favours a high level of state control over individuals, as a way of equalising outcomes, with no difference due to either privilege or due to individual merit (in fact, they seem to see individual merit as just another form of privilege to be wiped out).

Conservatives are pragmatic and favour successful outcomes over uniformity/equality of outcomes. They consider success - and it's rewards - to be individual, and are opposed to the state levelling down.

Outcomes for Racism

Labour see race (and also being an Asylum Seeker) as a cause of reduced privilege, and see it as self-evident that this should be balanced with preferential treatment - that's their 'neutral' point.

So they think Conservatives are racist because Conservatives object to the preferential treatment Labour see as neutral. But the Conservatives position is precisely because they aren't racist: and consider each person to be an individual responsible for themselves, and race is irrelevant to that.

Labour assume they aren't racist themselves, because with their automatic backing of the group of least privilege, they often do back non-white groups (eg AS, Palestinians, the US black civil rights movement in the 50s).

What they don't have the self-awareness to realise is that their MO is actually based on simply opposing anyone they percieve as having privilege. Very reductive, but self-righteous anger is very gratifying.

So sometimes their backing is reasonable (like the black civil rights movement of the 50s). But other times their 'Right Thinking' lacks any kind of nuance (hence an inability to balance rights between white working class and AS, or between Trans rights and women's rights). And they tend to rely on there being a bogeyman (hence weekly demonstrations for Palestinians and nothing about the genocide ongoing in Sudan). The right see this broad-brush categorisation of who to oppose and who to support - lacking context or nuance - as actually being racist.

Labour values also prioritise state control, so anyone who they think should be dependent on them - but is successful enough not to be - is a threat. Hence the persistent anti-semitism, and probably also the particularly virulent attacks on Sunak and his wife. The Right (correctly) see that as Labour being racist. The Right think anyone is equally entitled to create their own success, and race is irrelevant. They hope that a rising tide lifts all ships.

That's why the Conservatives have had many female and non-white leaders (because they value capable people regardless of race and sex) and Labour haven't (because they see people outside their expected pecking order as a threat).

MyNameIsX · 30/08/2025 14:20

strawberrybubblegum · 30/08/2025 14:07

It's interesting: I think Left and Right have such different value systems that they both genuinely see the other side as racist and also genuinely don't consider themselves to be.

Values

Labour are driven by their hierarchy of privilege. Their value system favours a high level of state control over individuals, as a way of equalising outcomes, with no difference due to either privilege or due to individual merit (in fact, they seem to see individual merit as just another form of privilege to be wiped out).

Conservatives are pragmatic and favour successful outcomes over uniformity/equality of outcomes. They consider success - and it's rewards - to be individual, and are opposed to the state levelling down.

Outcomes for Racism

Labour see race (and also being an Asylum Seeker) as a cause of reduced privilege, and see it as self-evident that this should be balanced with preferential treatment - that's their 'neutral' point.

So they think Conservatives are racist because Conservatives object to the preferential treatment Labour see as neutral. But the Conservatives position is precisely because they aren't racist: and consider each person to be an individual responsible for themselves, and race is irrelevant to that.

Labour assume they aren't racist themselves, because with their automatic backing of the group of least privilege, they often do back non-white groups (eg AS, Palestinians, the US black civil rights movement in the 50s).

What they don't have the self-awareness to realise is that their MO is actually based on simply opposing anyone they percieve as having privilege. Very reductive, but self-righteous anger is very gratifying.

So sometimes their backing is reasonable (like the black civil rights movement of the 50s). But other times their 'Right Thinking' lacks any kind of nuance (hence an inability to balance rights between white working class and AS, or between Trans rights and women's rights). And they tend to rely on there being a bogeyman (hence weekly demonstrations for Palestinians and nothing about the genocide ongoing in Sudan). The right see this broad-brush categorisation of who to oppose and who to support - lacking context or nuance - as actually being racist.

Labour values also prioritise state control, so anyone who they think should be dependent on them - but is successful enough not to be - is a threat. Hence the persistent anti-semitism, and probably also the particularly virulent attacks on Sunak and his wife. The Right (correctly) see that as Labour being racist. The Right think anyone is equally entitled to create their own success, and race is irrelevant. They hope that a rising tide lifts all ships.

That's why the Conservatives have had many female and non-white leaders (because they value capable people regardless of race and sex) and Labour haven't (because they see people outside their expected pecking order as a threat).

Edited

A very well-considered post if I may say.

And for context…

Sir Keir Starmer’s new budget adviser has previously called for more wealth taxes on inheritance, land and property.

The Prime Minister has drafted in Minouche Shafik, a former deputy governor of the Bank of England, to take on a pivotal role in No 10.

Her appointment will fuel fears that Rachel Reeves will announce punishing tax rises on people’s assets in the autumn Budget.

Baroness Shafik, who sits as a cross-bench peer, has previously dismissed the idea of a link between hard work and success as “pernicious”.

TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 14:37

strawberrybubblegum · 30/08/2025 14:07

It's interesting: I think Left and Right have such different value systems that they both genuinely see the other side as racist and also genuinely don't consider themselves to be.

Values

Labour are driven by their hierarchy of privilege. Their value system favours a high level of state control over individuals, as a way of equalising outcomes, with no difference due to either privilege or due to individual merit (in fact, they seem to see individual merit as just another form of privilege to be wiped out).

Conservatives are pragmatic and favour successful outcomes over uniformity/equality of outcomes. They consider success - and it's rewards - to be individual, and are opposed to the state levelling down.

Outcomes for Racism

Labour see race (and also being an Asylum Seeker) as a cause of reduced privilege, and see it as self-evident that this should be balanced with preferential treatment - that's their 'neutral' point.

So they think Conservatives are racist because Conservatives object to the preferential treatment Labour see as neutral. But the Conservatives position is precisely because they aren't racist: and consider each person to be an individual responsible for themselves, and race is irrelevant to that.

Labour assume they aren't racist themselves, because with their automatic backing of the group of least privilege, they often do back non-white groups (eg AS, Palestinians, the US black civil rights movement in the 50s).

What they don't have the self-awareness to realise is that their MO is actually based on simply opposing anyone they percieve as having privilege. Very reductive, but self-righteous anger is very gratifying.

So sometimes their backing is reasonable (like the black civil rights movement of the 50s). But other times their 'Right Thinking' lacks any kind of nuance (hence an inability to balance rights between white working class and AS, or between Trans rights and women's rights). And they tend to rely on there being a bogeyman (hence weekly demonstrations for Palestinians and nothing about the genocide ongoing in Sudan). The right see this broad-brush categorisation of who to oppose and who to support - lacking context or nuance - as actually being racist.

Labour values also prioritise state control, so anyone who they think should be dependent on them - but is successful enough not to be - is a threat. Hence the persistent anti-semitism, and probably also the particularly virulent attacks on Sunak and his wife. The Right (correctly) see that as Labour being racist. The Right think anyone is equally entitled to create their own success, and race is irrelevant. They hope that a rising tide lifts all ships.

That's why the Conservatives have had many female and non-white leaders (because they value capable people regardless of race and sex) and Labour haven't (because they see people outside their expected pecking order as a threat).

Edited

Excellent post Strawbs 👏👏👏
So true.

OP posts:
TheNuthatch · 30/08/2025 14:43

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 30/08/2025 12:48

I’ve seen a poster refer to Rishi Sunak approvingly on the no. 5 thread. I agree.

I will never forgive the Labour MNers for what were relentless and frankly outrageous attacks on him and his wife. Mrs Sunak’s sin was being rich. And of course his was being married to her. All the bogus tax allegations and accusations of non-dom manipulation stank of racism.

Yep totally agree. They still attack the Sunaks now. It's vile.
As a pp also said, same for Badenoch. How dare she be a black, female, and conservative.

OP posts:
EmpressoftheMundane · 30/08/2025 15:06

Heavy wealth taxes can cross a line into government appropriation. Is there a level of tax that crosses a line to the point that citizens could sue the government on human rights grounds?

CruCru · 30/08/2025 15:07

Every so often there is something in the news about Katharine Birbalsingh (the headmistress of the Michaela school). She said that she gets so much abuse for being a black woman who is a Tory - plus people are furious that the children at her (very strict) school seem to do so well.

MyNameIsX · 30/08/2025 15:24

EmpressoftheMundane · 30/08/2025 15:06

Heavy wealth taxes can cross a line into government appropriation. Is there a level of tax that crosses a line to the point that citizens could sue the government on human rights grounds?

Not sure but I do believe that many will simply go ‘on strike’, meaning work less, retire earlier, emigrate, liquidate, mitigate - anything rather than hand over money to these thieves.

Hollyohara · 30/08/2025 16:03

twistyizzy · 30/08/2025 11:17

Because if you aren't a publicly owned company you are the enemy!
Everything to be publicly owned, no individual wealth or owning of anything. Unless you are a member of Labour, then it's fine

Exactly. They’ve decided to throw off the sheep’s clothing now. They are ugly.

I just can’t imagine 4 more years of this.

Rayner sums it all up. The photo of her overweight and vaping in her blow up kayak, in the sea outside her new 2nd home seafront flat in Hove, despite supposedly representing somewhere in Manchester, disgusts me. People voted for Labour to represent them and the people’s interests, that’s their job. Sadly Labour have got their snouts in the trough, they did that, immediately.

It looks like our children will have to be picking up the pieces of this governments mess (as we did from some of Thatchers decisions), for a long time.

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