Sex is badly designed

[Mitara]

Does anyone else think that sex is badly designed.

I have gone off sex. Not the act of sex itself. But the threat of physical violence makes me scared of sex.

So many men have physically or mentally tried to force me to do things that i dont want to do in sex.

The last guy i had sex with for example, he tried to choke me, then he tried to film me. I said no to filming and he said "no we must agree on filming".

Why make one gender much physically bigger than the other. Of course many men are going to intimidate, bully (and in extreme circumstances) rape women.

A recent study showed that a third of men in the study would rape women if they could get away with it.

A male acquaintance once said to me "of course men abuse women. If you are going to choose someone to abuse you are going to abuse the people that are physically weaker than you"

It just all seems so badly designed.

I feel like we’re probably closer to agreeing than our fairly hostile exchange would suggest. I’m certainly not arguing for a broad return to traditional values.

As you say yourself, women are still abused, still feel the need to submit to men for reasons of self-preservation. Normalising casual sex to the extent that women feel they’re wrong not to want it hasn’t changed any of this. I therefore cant accept the argument that (many) women not having casual sex pre-sexual revolution is the reason that lower status women were abused. The abuse was done by men and was their responsibility, then as now.

Yes: the reason women were abused in the past was that men were in a position to abuse them; then as now.

I too would bring up a daughter (I have sons) with the belief that she should not be obliged to submit to a man. But I’d also give her a very honest account of why most women have never had that option.

Even if that’s true, the fact a third of the participants, young university students, thought getting away with rape was a suitable thing to lie and joke about isn’t that great either. They can’t have thought it a serious topic if they didn’t even bother answering the question properly could they.

It always has been, my mum was saying recently how men used to grab your bum or spank it in queues at the bank, she got raped a few times after dates, people didn’t care about paedos

I hear you OP. I was thinking this exact thought the other day.

You can see in the animal kingdom females are smaller and weaker than the males for this very reason I think. To keep reproduction happening and the preservation of the species makes need to be able to physically dominate the female for successful reproduction. Just look at lions. The male comes from behind and bites the lioness and pins her into submission.
and end of the day we are all animals. It’s super depressing.
i actually had a thought only recently because I’ve been watching a lot of Harlots and Outlander - and I don’t see how we have improved in our attitudes to rape in centuries! We still have soooo many women and girls being raped and the powers that be do fuck all.
im a social worker and work with the police sometimes and the attitudes are appalling - especially if the girl is young and has working class and dresses and acts provocatively online. How are we any better than attitudes in Victorian times? Rich women were chattles or just fancy prostitues, poor women were harlots. Nowadays it’s a bit more clock and dagger but I was recently dating and there are expectations and pressures. It’s shit.

Traditional norms about avoiding sex outside a committed relationship may seem too constraining but actually provided women with protection against abusive men," - your words.
They did not.
They loaded enormous risk of violence, disease and unplanned pregnancy onto lower-ranking women (who had no choice but to sell their bodies), creating further risk for women in "committed relationships".

This is what you said previously. It’s very different from what you’re saying above.

Victorian men didn’t abuse prostituted women because their wives were too chaste. They did it because they could, same as men today. If your later post reflects your actual views, rather than your earlier one, we are in agreement.

Orcas give me a bit of hope. They’re animals too. Led by female elders.

Sex would be so much better for everyone if we all communicated openly about our do's / dont's beforehand - like in the BDSM community, they communicate their hard no's, and have safe words, etc. Of course, abusers will still abuse, but at least you'll find better sexual compatibility.

I would stand by both statements. When respectable Victorian women said no, non-respectable women were forced to say yes. Men held all the power. LP sells the falsehood that by saying no, women somehow solved the problem.

Men set the game up for their own gratification, and all women lost. No matter what they did.

Is this what the dating scene is like now?

Last time I was out there was 15 years ago.

Never encountered anything like this or felt physically unsafe

Then we don’t agree. I will never blame women saying no for men abusing other women.

It’s not a question of blame. It’s a question of understanding that in the traditional chastity game, there are no winners.

Do you seriously think that if all young women took LP’s advice, we’d be in a better place? Saying “no” is a sensible thing for a young woman to do, but it does nothing to fix the underlying issues. Whether you think this matters depends on whether you care about the women who lose out. I do care about them, a great deal.

But it’s nonsense. There’s no evidence at all that the sexual revolution and women feeling more able to say yes to casual sex reduced men abusing women. Countless men sleep with prostitutes or commit rape, while having a wife at home with whom they also have sex. Men don’t abuse women because of lack of options. They do it because they can.

It’s also profoundly misogynistic. Women, even high status women, are not a resource to be used to control men’s behaviour. We are human beings.

You honestly don’t come across as caring about women at all. The notion that women saying no are to blame for men’s abusive behaviour harms all women, whatever their status.

“Traditional” values served men, and men only. Invoking them as a way forward nullifies your stance.

But I haven’t done this. In fact, I’ve been very clear that I’m not invoking traditional values (see my post up the page).

We are getting nowhere so I’m not sure there’s any point in continuing this. I’ll never agree that women are to blame for men’s behaviour. We are not a resource to be used by men.

I felt bad before that we’d had a bit of a chippy exchange and that we were actually quite close to each other’s positions but you doubling down on blaming women for the abuse of other women has really sickened me. We don’t agree and I’d strongly encourage you to reconsider your position.

You’re the one, not me, who has twice defended “tradition”, even though we both know how that tended to work out.

You’re the one who thinks I’m blaming women. I’m blaming men.

When my (middle-class, well-to-do) father smashed a plate over my head because he didn’t want a mixed-race daughter, I guess I could have tried demanding that he treat me like a human being. Stamping my foot and insisting he stop. Or perhaps insisting that my trapped and despairing mother simply leave. Do you think it would have worked? If not, why not?

Men hold more power than women. Unless we do the economic work to change that, teaching girls to say “no” is simply another survival-move. Necessary for sure, but not the brave resistance act that you think it is. Men just take their violence elsewhere.

I have defended one specific norm against the normalisation of casual sex (which I will remind you is the subject of the thread)). I feel you read that and then stopped reading or thinking and assumed I was defending a raft of norms. It’s very clear from my posts that that is not the case.

I’m sorry to hear that you suffered abuse.

I don’t disagree with anything in your last paragraph either. But none of this justifies what you said before about men’s abuse being due to women saying no. It’s an appalling position to hold. Women are not a resource to absorb men’s abuse for the sake of other women. I agree that the underlying problem is the economic difference in power between men and women. But I also think it’s perfectly legitimate to teach girls
to say no if they wish. Men take their violence elsewhere either way.

On the point about whether you’re blaming women, I’ll just quote your own words-

Traditional norms about avoiding sex outside a committed relationship may seem too constraining but actually provided women with protection against abusive men," - your words.
They did not.
They loaded enormous risk of violence, disease and unplanned pregnancy onto lower-ranking women (who had no choice but to sell their bodies), creating further risk for women in "committed relationships".

When called out on this you said “When respectable Victorian women said no, non-respectable women were forced to say yes”. Doesn’t sound much like blaming men to me.

I've seen dogs, cats, gerbils and mice mate and every occasion looked like rape to me.

It is sad. The poor females of the species.

They have no choice.

Some insects and spiders have it sorted. Mind you I probably wouldn't have enjoyed eating my husband's head on our wedding night.
I suspect it would have put him off marriage too.

I’m 50, and have had terrible experiences which I’ve never reported:
-ongoing sexual abuse by uncle at age 5
-flashed by a man while walking on busy a busy Main Street with my friends at 12
-raped by boyfriend at 16
-physically assaulted by a boyfriend at 20
I reported none of these. All affected me negatively (OFC) but I chose not to report because in my mind it would make the situation even more traumatic dealing with police, knowing the perpetrators would deny, potential court etc.

When I told my mum what happened to me when I was 5 she didn’t understand the seriousness as my 5 year old explanation was limited and she said she kept an eye out and didn’t notice anything untoward.
Ive been fairly lucky later in life and the negative experiences were more coercive control which I was able to manage my way out of.

After my marriage I decided to only date women and I’ve been in a relationship with a woman for over a year now and it’s lovely. None of that nonsense at all.

I’m with OP on this one.