Why have so many kids if you're struggling so much already?

[AmusedTaupePlayer]

Not sure where to post this, but I know someone who I'm really trying to understand. She has autism and a number of serious mental health diagnoses. She's estranged from her abusive family, can't work due to disability, and her relationship with the kids' father has ended.
She now has four children, at least one of whom is also disabled (epilepsy), and I just can’t wrap my head around it. Raising even one child is hard enough, let alone four, and with so many challenges already stacked against you — why bring children into that?
I'm not judging her as a person — I think she’s doing her best — but I keep wondering whether it's fair on the kids when you know you can’t offer stability or support, especially if you’re also navigating trauma yourself.
Is it naive of me to think people should try to get themselves into a stable place before bringing children into the mix? Am I missing something? Genuinely open to different views.

So no one in poor communities should have kids? Only those who have never had a bereavement should have kids? People who have lived a life experiencing racism should never have kids?

Shocking!

I have not ranted. I have certainly not written in such a rude manner as you. I'm also not mad about your other thread. I only looked at it briefly to see what you were referencing but you might have noticed that I haven't even bothered posting on it. Honestly if you can't handle debate and difference of opinion then MN isn't the forum for you.

That’s not what @Bumpitybumper said! So no that’s not what i was agreeing with. What a bad faith reading of their post.

ETA

I won’t engage further with such nonsense except to say I know plenty of poorer families who provide a loving stable home and some richer families who don’t provide that. You don’t need to provide your child with their dream Christmas list and every middle class opportunity going to have a peaceful and emotionally healthy home.

Not even going to address the racism part as that is just bizarre.

I’m sure you were musing on here a few days ago about how someone could afford their lifestyle - I remembered the username which is unusual for me.

You seem to spend a lot of time judging other people….

Yet this isn't what was written at all. The only person suggesting that those who are poor, have suffered bereavement or experienced racism shouldn't have kids is you.

Where is the father(s) in all this? It takes two to make a baby. Why are you just bashing the mum?

The point being made was anyone with trauma shouldn't have kids.

I have never said anyone with trauma shouldn't. Why shouldn't people who are poor have kids? Or people who have suffered bereavement? Or people who have lived with racism and all other trauma experiences?

Trauma is normal. To say someone is a shit parent because they have trauma is not acceptable.

Nope it wasn't bad faith at all. The point being made was anyone with trauma shouldn't have kids. Almost all people have trauma.

Living in poverty is a trauma. Having someone die is a trauma. Living in a world where you experience racism at every turn is a trauma.

You don't think living in a racist world is a trauma?

Yes, it's strange that the parent staying and bringing up the kids always seems to get looked down on and not the one who disappeared

@Nina1013 I've also read their particularly goady thread on council tax. In that thread they didn't seem to know whether they had kids or not. I take anything they write with a pinch of salt.

Except that wasn't my point at all. Most people have suffered trauma. It is possible to manage and heal trauma in a way that doesn't impact your ability to be a parent. This does mean you have to be able to provide a stable and loving home though "despite" the trauma. That is the point.

Wouldn't surprise me.

I spent a weekend with family who had a fit at every pg - going on and on about someone else - unknown to us - having too big a house - and who did they think there were and what were they playing at.

I'm not judging her as a person — I think she’s doing her best — but I keep wondering whether it's fair on the kids when you know you can’t offer stability or support, especially if you’re also navigating trauma yourself.

Maybe because she has this idea that she'll receive the love she needs from her multiple children. It's completely misguided, but she's probably having babies so they'll love her. It's so sad.

You don't need to heal from trauma to provide a good home as trauma doesn't just stop. People experience many traumas as a parent. The fact we still use stable and unstable shows we're still using the stigma of old.

You can suffer trauma and still be a good parent with no healing at all. You can suffer no trauma and be a shit parent.

Both things can be true. Healing isn't necessary for good parenting to occur. Sad that stereotypes and stigma are still in play. You can suffer huge trauma and still be a great parent because most people do not display your stereotypical trauma responses that we are hearing on here.

I completely agree @AmusedTaupePlayer And I am glad others do too. I think it's a shame humans aren't born unable to have children, and should have to go through an intensive 2-3 year course to be allowed to have them. (Like a degree.) Obviously a Uptopian pipedream (or dystopian depending on how you look at it,) but it would stop a LOT of people popping out child after child when they can't be arsed with them/can't look after them/don't want to look after them.

Tracy on Classic Corrie right now is a classic example of quite a number of mums I know who had a baby, (or more than one,) and just shove them off to anyone who will have them, so they can get on with their social life, go out with their mates, spend endless hours scrolling through their phone or computer, or go to the gym, and they even go away without them. Yes yes yes, some of the fathers are shite too, pretty much absent when they're still with the mother, and very absent and not in the child's life much - if at all - when the relationship with the mother breaks down.

I know a woman (mid to late 30s) who has a son aged 15, with a man who she was with for about 2 years after the lad was born.. He moved out to live with his dad a couple of years ago when she was constantly using him as a babysitter for his 2 younger siblings... Then she has another son (7) by another man she was with for just a few months after he was born. And also a little girl (4) whose father she was with (again,) for just a few months after the little girl was born.

For the 3 years she has lived near me, (she lives about 3 doors up,) she has done nothing but shout and scream at these kids - for breathing sometimes! and she walks ahead of them when picking them up from school, screaming at them. You can hear her constantly yelling at them in the house, even from 3 doors away! And she never even looks at them when she speaks to them. No love at all for them. (Not that I can see when I see them outside!) She also lets the 7 y.o. boy and 4 y.o. girl out on their own, playing in the streets and cycling up and down the main road. It's a miracle one of them hasn't been killed to be honest. She doesn't care though as long as they're not under her feet.

Last year she met another man who moved in with her in February this year, after just 5 months together. Hilariously, she is pregnant again. Due mid September. She can't be fucked with the children she has, why in the name of all that is HOLY is she having another one?

Well that's subjective because I don't see my manner being any more different from yours, not just to me but on this thread in general. If you can handle debate then you should expect your energy to be matched.

We have a difference of opinion and also you are misunderstanding what I am saying. You have said you believe I am making excuses for generational cycles not to be broken and that is far from it. I am saying understand what's going and recognise changing these patterns are difficult, have empathy and look at support structures required, hence why I asked OP if this person is a friend and if so what help they have offered.

No but you do need to manage trauma as I referenced in my post if you can't heal it. Unmanaged trauma is problematic.

Stability is important to a child's wellbeing. This has been proven many times in countless scientific studies. It isn't about stigmatising the parent but focussing on the child's needs.

I don't know why people do it but I'm with you. It's the absolute height of selfishness and all too often ends up with the children being parentified. I think that four children is too many even in ideal circumstances, unless you are very wealthy and there is a decent gap between them all. Bringing up multiple children in cramped chaos is my idea of hell on earth, and it can't be fun for the kids either.

I understand your frustation. It's her upbringing & mental health. Nothing will change. Just continue to support & care about her/them. This really is all that you can do.

No you don't need to manage it at all as you are thinking that trauma will show with stereotypical behaviours which will impact on the child. This is very far from the truth in most cases.

Unmanaged trauma is not problematic in most cases. The fact you are using stigma proves the point. You are using stereotypes and stigma.

I have unmanaged trauma - I teach a class of 30 kids daily. Am I a risk to kids?

Yes stability is important but a person with trauma is not unstable. They can be unstable or they can be stable. A person without trauma can be unstable or stable. Stability doesn't come from lack or trauma or managed trauma. It comes from good parenting.

Managing trauma doesn't mean recieving formal help for it. It is generally accepted that dealing with trauma healthily is important for the individual themselves and for the individual's dependents. Management techniques can be formal or informal. I am using best practice and science, not stigma and stereotypes. Charities like Mind offer great advice on this.

I haven't never said that unmanaged trauma automatically leads to instability but there is often a link. Again, this is backed by scientific research

Of course other posters will encourage - not their life not their problem. It’s so easy to write oh just go for it, it will all work out when they only know a tiny part of the woman’s life.

"Is it naive of me to think people should try to get themselves into a stable place before bringing children into the mix"

I suffered quite badly with anxiety and depression for many years and did everything I could to get better. I took all the medication and did all the therapies. I was stable for years. I came off everything to get pregnant and was still fine, I was fine all the way through pregnancy. Then after birth (hormones definitely played a huge part) I spiralled, suicidal the lot. I was diagnosed with ADHD and I am now stable on ADHD medication which has changed my life. I said to myself at the time if I knew this would happen I would never put my baby through having a mum like me (she was only a few months old so I hope she doesn't remember me being so emotional and frantic). I never saw it coming at all.

No thoughts for the children .

I agree generally. But sometimes you want to give a disabled child a bit of a "tribe". People that will be with your child through thick and thin for msny yrars (hopefully). I felt like this a bit and had 3 for that reason. It has worked out actually and so pleased we have 3.