Why have so many kids if you're struggling so much already?

[AmusedTaupePlayer]

Not sure where to post this, but I know someone who I'm really trying to understand. She has autism and a number of serious mental health diagnoses. She's estranged from her abusive family, can't work due to disability, and her relationship with the kids' father has ended.
She now has four children, at least one of whom is also disabled (epilepsy), and I just can’t wrap my head around it. Raising even one child is hard enough, let alone four, and with so many challenges already stacked against you — why bring children into that?
I'm not judging her as a person — I think she’s doing her best — but I keep wondering whether it's fair on the kids when you know you can’t offer stability or support, especially if you’re also navigating trauma yourself.
Is it naive of me to think people should try to get themselves into a stable place before bringing children into the mix? Am I missing something? Genuinely open to different views.

No they do not as wandering womb doesn't exist. Children with parents diagnosed as BPD have poor childhoods as the cause of the BPD is usually abuse meaning that is what causes their shit childhood - the parent who is abusing the other and the kids are seeing it. Abusers get their victims labelled BPD to silence them as that label prevents them being believed. It is the abusers label.

Well one possible reason is the men are similar to the women. Lower than average intelligence, impulsive behaviour.

I have a daughter with a learning Disability. Her peer group are other twenty something adults . Like her would fit the mild intellectual disability category . In addition some have autism and / or ADHD. Some have mental health problems co-morbid with their ND and at least one was brought up in care and has trauma.

They are an unusual group in that the majority are in work either full time, part time or voluntary. However , a high number are already parents and in every case the relationship has broken down and they are parenting alone.

I don’t know the reasons why. As an onlooker it does appear that contraception is lacking.

My daughter went to a SEN college and I know condoms were discussed. So there was sex education but perhaps it should have been more rigorously explained. Dd knows she can say anything to me and I will have her back and not judge. So she was able to talk to me and we discussed what contraception would be best for her and I went with her to see the nurse at our gp clinic.

To have sex is a human right. Society needs to stop thinking of people with learning disabilities as eternal children. Better sex education is needed. Ideally there should be more support for disabled people parenting but where would the money come from? The purse for health and education is so overstretched already.

I am perfectly capable of thinking critically. Your understanding of 'range' is bizarre. You just don't like posters with an alternative perspective. It's not the lack of nuance but lack of agreement that you don't like.

You suggested that OP had answered her own question as to why this woman keeps having more and more children. You don't know the woman that OP has posted about and have no idea how her MH conditions or upbringing has impacted her decision making skills. You have attributed it to these things because it's neat and tidy and basically absolves the mother of blame. Life is more complex and ironically more nuanced than that. Self determination also plays a role and arguably the most significant role in situations like this.

I come from a background where lots of girls grew up in challenging situations. Many now would be diagnosed with MH conditions and there is a clear link between trauma and lots of MH conditions. Some have repeated the patterns of their families and others have fought hard against this. I know you will say that the ones that have resisted had less severe MH Conditions/challenging childhoods but this absolutely isn't the whole story. Some chose the more difficult and challenging path and have managed to break the cycle. Their courage and strength should be recognised.

We have a social unit on our housing estate. You can see these women continuing to have more despite their situations. Just why? Is it because they don't have the normal stresses that a working mother would do - before and after childcare? Life is easy for them in that respect. They walk the children to school and go home then pick them up later. They can't even be bothered to walk the length of the village to make use of the free food the church has very Saturday. Yet they are out there spending at every food outlet that turns up at the village - pizza van, fish and chips , Chinese food etc. Do they do it to get bigger houses? It seems that the thoughts that working families have doesn't apply to them? Why are their children always special needs ? Yet there they go pregnant again 🤷‍♀️

Your right. I have two disabled kids - would never have anymore. They take all my time up, wouldnt be fair to add more and my sanity probably wouldnt cope.

Out living their life with zero judgement because apparently procreation is one sided and only takes a woman by herself these days.

OP, you haven’t actually said anywhere that “this woman” is actually struggling or is actively having more kids.

Lots of people have mental health diagnoses well managed with meds and aren’t struggling. Lots of great neurodivergent parents. Maybe her mental health is a bit better managed than yours.

And of course lots of fantastic single
mums out there many of whom thrive when a deadweight partner is out of the picture.

I also believe that part of the reason they have so many children is because they hook up with some new guy and want to as a way to " keep him" .

You are right but people just don’t think in that way, sadly.

I don't think trauma just stops. I also know that it can take a long time to break the cycle of trauma and that's why I reference intergenerational trauma. I also think though that we aren't merely passive entities in our lives. That we can seek help and healing. Everyone has self determination. All of us have moments and junctions where can make objectively terrible decisions that will make us feel better and sooth our trauma. Support at these times is critical but ultimately we also have to accept some responsibility as individuals.

Thank you for this, @LadyKenya .

I was trying to formulate something similar, but the veiled judgey nature of the OP made me too cross to get the right tone!

I think it's pretty clear why she's doing it (probably multiple, complex reasons). It's also pretty clear in many cases that yes, that's wrong. Anyone sensible can argue that you should only have children in a stable environment - emotionally, financially etc. However the uncomfortable truth is that there's no way to enforce this. Well, actually there is, but that's the uncomfortable bit. Enforcing sensible procreation only? Really? It's just not an option in modern society. If we start forcibly sterilising those we deem unfit to procreate, where does it end? Is that what you're suggesting we do, @AmusedTaupePlayer? I doubt it. No-one wants to go down that path but realistically there isn't any way to stop other people having children if they want them, even at times when we all know it's a very bad idea.

That’s interesting because I’ve noticed the opposite. I’d see an overwhelming majority of comments on these type of threads, encouraging abortion.

It’s always about them and never about the children. I can imagine the care needed for one disabled child, mind boggling why you would make your life and the child’s life harder by adding another child. So no thought to the other children.

Completely agree with this.

I know someone with an extremely abusive H and she has 4 children and wanted more but couldn't due to medical conditions. I feel like i know her well enough to her reason was that she finally felt love from someone when she started having her kids and yes I agree it's selfish because of how they grew up with less and struggled with money but I feel kind of sad for her.

@User37482 but to many people having a termination is unconscionable. In any circumstances. I think its important to respect this view too. While i would support someone through an unplanned pregnancy I can't understand why contraception isn't an absolute priority thereafter. Once bitten twice shy and all that.

@Applecrumble0110 I think that's it, a child's love especially in the early years is so pure. If you have not been loved enough or dont love yourself then it must be the best thing imaginable. As the child grows and becomes critical or pulls away as teens naturally do, then there is another little one there to unconditionally love you. And so on and so on. It's sad really.

Most threads I see on MN are anti anyone having kids - even those asking when not if - people come on and say don't.

So yes every thread I've seen there always someone advocating abortion.

It's an option though.

However when I was 6 months pg and we were in a very temporary position number of people advcoating it to my face in RL was a bloody shock.

Also unhelpful number telling us we should have forseen 6 month earlier somthing unexpected by businnes he worked for happening.

A year and half before that we'd had subtantial savings in the bank - we didn't then becuase we'd bought a house that needed more work than survey said - we were protrayed as feckless idiots. DH got a higher paying job and that child now 16 and never before or since have we ever been in such a vunerable postion again.

I agree.

So many women acquire pets for comfort and companionship.

I do wonder if some see babies and small children as a kind of pet?

However much it may baffle you or astound you, EVERYBODY has the right to become a parent and it is nobody’s place to tell you you can or can’t

Absolute bollocks.

Spot on. This sums it up perfectly tbh

@BeMintFatball
To have sex is a human right. Society needs to stop thinking of people with learning disabilities as eternal children. Better sex education is needed. Ideally there should be more support for disabled people parenting but where would the money come from? The purse for health and education is so overstretched already
You're right there isn't the money or resource available to support disabled parents. Also many disabilities are genetic so you can end up in a situation where a disabled parent with care needs of their own has a disabled child with high care needs too. This can be almost impossible to manage when the needs can conflict. It is a very tricky subject indeed and relevant to this thread as the mother of the four children is Autistic so there is a high likelihood that at least one of her children will also be Autistic.

Get over yourself. This isn't the first space I have been in where people disagreed with me and won't be the last. I don't live in an echo chamber. Differing views are a part of life.

You don't know the woman that OP has posted about and have no idea how her MH conditions or upbringing has impacted her decision making skills. You have attributed it to these things because it's neat and tidy and basically absolves the mother of blame.

There's no point getting mad at my other thread when you are just going to prove my point. You conflate understanding with absolving and are being wilfully obtuse to say we don't know if her background and mental health is impacting her choices. This is what YOU tell yourself to justify your rants.

You have no idea what I would say about those who have overcome vs those who haven't because you have no idea what my own background or experiences are with mental health or challenging upbringings.

I think the op raises an interesting question that should be more widely discussed. It would be nice to see more expectations of reason again to balance with the constant demands for ‘empathy’ aka ‘be kind’. We all know numbers of children and birth order impacts wealth and life chances, and we all know about inheritance. It’s particularly relevant with all these men suddenly in charge with pro-birthing attitudes demanding more kids.

Another element that shines through is that this is about women’s rights, still. It’s always the women who get criticised for bringing the kids into the world, always the woman who takes the blame for the impact of relationship breakdowns, always the woman who has to sacrifice her future life chances for the kids - and that is what limitations on future relationships include.

Only a couple of pp’s have asked where the men are. Is this what women’s rights now amount to once again? Women take all the responsibility and blame while not having any contrasting leaps in status for the responsibility of that choice? Where are the life chances or support for women to have kids and continue with the working life needed to support themselves? Economic life and the need to earn a living is rather more fundamental to survival - procreation should come after successful survival, not before.

@BeMintFatball why on earth do you think that sex is a human right? Do you not see the immediate consequences and conflicts that has with women’s basic rights to bodily autonomy? It’s a very broad statement to make with a lot of implications.