Why have so many kids if you're struggling so much already?

[AmusedTaupePlayer]

Not sure where to post this, but I know someone who I'm really trying to understand. She has autism and a number of serious mental health diagnoses. She's estranged from her abusive family, can't work due to disability, and her relationship with the kids' father has ended.
She now has four children, at least one of whom is also disabled (epilepsy), and I just can’t wrap my head around it. Raising even one child is hard enough, let alone four, and with so many challenges already stacked against you — why bring children into that?
I'm not judging her as a person — I think she’s doing her best — but I keep wondering whether it's fair on the kids when you know you can’t offer stability or support, especially if you’re also navigating trauma yourself.
Is it naive of me to think people should try to get themselves into a stable place before bringing children into the mix? Am I missing something? Genuinely open to different views.

You opted out of a life that didn't suit you and opted in to one with meaning and purpose that you could manage and sustain. Neither is good or bad, they are just different and both are valid. Raising children well is one of the most important ways a person can spend their time and energy.

No of course I don’t think having children is “risky and selfish”. Your characterisation would see drinking and smoking, driving, travelling, overeating, and all sorts of choices we make every day as prohibitively risky or selfish. I don’t think having more than two children is particularly out there behaviour. The fact that you would or have chosen a much “safer” number is just a reflection of your own aspirations, risk appetite and personal likes and dislikes. Not everyone scurries through life trying to protect themselves from every imagined outcome.

I literally just made a post about the lack of range I see on this forum. What part of my comment did you get the impression I am advocating for this cycle to continue? I'm sorry but please think more critically. How do you expect the cycle to break if we don't understand how and why the behaviour even continues?

I know someone who has 7 kids, she hasn't been able to care for any of them that well and they are now all in their late teens and early 20's with issues themselves. She was adopted so I think this may have some relation to everything. Her sister was adopted with her and she has 8 kids, I think they are in competition with each other.

My niece has 3 dc and struggles to cope with them. She too was abandoned by her own mother and left with her father who couldn't cope, she then lost her first child she had at just 16 (our great niece died of a brain tumour). I think she went on to have children in the hope of finding love and to drown out her grief.

A woman living across the road from my parents had all 5 of her dc removed by ss, no idea of her story but she obviously has some issues to have all of her children removed. She then went on to have another baby a year ago but that was removed at birth.

In a lot of cases, regardless of your mental health status, just because you can doesn't mean you should!

I do agree actually but it is such a complex thing. I think sometimes people have more than one (or several) children as they are chasing something - an ideal, a dream, love?

A friend of mine lost a baby and went on to have four more children, she did acknowledge that she was chasing the lost one. She did have the resources, financial and emotional to care for her children (with a DH) but perhaps that's it? Very difficult to understand why but I struggle to understand lots of decisions humans make! Like women (or men) who make a life for themselves with a violent layabout/abuser. It's a tough one!

It's not a completely personal choice though is it? If it were then it wouldn't impact anyone else. The reality is though, this mother is highly reliant on society (i e. the rest of us) to deal with the consequences of her decision. I don't even mean just financially. It's highly likely that her children will require an awful lot of additional help and resource as they grow up.

Even if you choose to have a large family and can financially and emotionally support the children at the time of conception, anything could happen that could change this situation. Society once again will provide the safety net that all these children will need. Again, I use the example of getting lots of dogs or cats. Many people understand that this is an intrinsically risky thing to do for most people and that it would increase the chances of animal welfare charities needing to get involved if circumstances change and it wasn't viable to keep 10 dogs or cats. Why do we understand this with animals and pretend the same logic doesn't apply to children?

I know someone who had a friend who judged everyone by their ability to have children. She was not a high achiever and having babies was her way of proving herself in the world while the bright peers went on to have careers she had children The downside was that she called the 'someone' childish and immature because she chose to wait for children till her career was established. Sometimes, I think it is just where people are coming from and the lot they were born with. Can't change other people. All you can do is make sure you take a wide berth.

Unfortunately they often lack the maturity and, dare I say it, intelligence to make sensible life decisions.

🙄🙄. Her MH. Issues & her childhood.

no, you're right. It's probably not that which is causing her to have one baby after another...to fill an inner need she can't see past..

🙇🏻‍♀️🙇🏻‍♀️be serious!

'I'm not judging her as a person' - goes on to judge her as a person 🙄.

I think it is ok to have a lot of children if you have the money to look after them. We stopped at 2 as that is all we could afford at the time.

I have 4 dc, and had my eldest at just 18. I'm sure most people assume that he was an accident, he wasn't. All my dc's were planned.

I don't have any mental or health issues, but what I did crave was love and affection. And I, unconciously, set about to create that. Outwardly I had a great, and privileged, childhood. Privately schooled, df had a great job and dm was a stay at home mum. But df worked away a lot and I barely saw him as a young child, dm, in hindsight, was massively depressed, probably had an ED and had lots of gynae issues. She was often in bed "ill". My younger sister was the clear favourite from the moment she was born, and I was left feeling that I couldn't do anything right. So I rebelled, and decided to create my own family.

There's a lot more to this story, and, as you can probably tell, I've had a lot of counselling to get to a point where I understand myself and my vulnerabilities.

One thing I can say..... I've never been on benefits. I've always worked, and always provided for all of them. I have a good job, with a good salary. It could be better, but my choice of father's (there's 2 - 2 children with each, currently going through my second contentious divorce) was decidedly dodgy, so I've always put being available for the dc's first.

I have cPTSD and multiple chronic health conditions. It has been my life long dream to be a mother. I spent many years heartbroken & in a state of deep depression thinking that I should not have a child, I allowed people with similar attitudes to yourself to get in my head and tell me I shouldn’t even be thinking about kids…However much it may baffle you or astound you, EVERYBODY has the right to become a parent and it is nobody’s place to tell you you can or can’t; and it was a consultant obstetrician that told me that before I even got pregnant. Just because YOU do not like it or disagree with it, it’s none of your business and you should absolutely keep your nose out.
For what it is worth, I’m a great mother, I have a wonderful, healthy and happy child & a great support system in place that can help me on the days where I need extra support. He starts nursery next month and there has never been any concerns about him; his development or his care at home. Yes, I do get more tired, yes, there are days where I need some extra help but my child is thriving. My son will grow up knowing that empathy and compassion are so important, he will know that disabled is not lesser, that all families don’t look the same and the most vulnerable in our society are just as valuable and worthy as those who may look down their noses and judge those in different circumstances to their own. May I also add, there are no guarantees in this life…tomorrow you could be involved in a car accident or be struck down with an illness and what then? Life and circumstances change. What you’re judging others on, could be your reality in an instant. Honestly, just let her be. If she’s your friend, put the judgement to the side and be a good friend and muck in. If not, leave her be. The last thing she needs is more judgement from a so called friend because trust me, if you’re at the point when you’re writing threads on Mumsnet about it, she knows what you think of her and her choices. This thread and the comments underneath say far more about you & the state of our society than it ever could about her.

But very often they are making poverty choices for their children too.

If you have one child and later can’t cope or die that’s also an issue for wider social resource. Most people don’t die or become incapacitated before their children are of age! My parents had 5 kids, both worked, never claimed benefits, all of us are now professionals in successful jobs. 2 with PhDs, our own kids and marriages. Not sure that being the parent of multiple children is inherently more risky than being a parent to one. Tho I have only one myself and could not cope with 5.

I agree with you OP

I know people who have 2, 3, 4 or children and then complain how hard it is

I know I'm supposed to say oh no how could she - and part of me does wonder why but I've had such critsim thrown at me - and my detractors now praise my kids and if close family try and take credit for them turning out so well.

In fact I can't think of a lauded couple in our social circle that that hasn't divorse/split usually before any kids hit double figures.

Meanwhile we're still togther and happy with kids neary adults depiet everyone insisting that couldn't be the case - DH cousin who everyone also said made a bad choice still togther when "better" couples have split and got acrimonious.

We had negative comments about even having kids - despite being married despite ND/SEN well educated in good paying jobs - when we had kids, how many, age gaps - everyone had an opinion - even when it had no effect on them.

We've done it all oursleves - despite some family making out us having kids was some sort of bruden on them . Bar three month when I was SAHM and DH was made redundant out of blue we got his NI and £60 and let of coucil tax rest that kept us afloat was savings and reducany money - till he got a better job - in less than 3 months -- all those "nice" people telling 6 month pg me to get an illegal abortion -.

Now I don't think everyone should have kids - I do think they should all be carefully considered - as all mine have been despite what some family insist on telling others. But parents can't forsee everything - and at somepoint it's a leap of faith however well set up you appear.

Honestly in our social family groups there's 6 months somewhere between 28-40 where it's acceptable to have 2 kids - no more or less - else you are too young or too old to have them.

This set up doesn't sound great I grant you - and not one I'd want or actively choose - but how it appears in the outside may differ to how the people living it feel it is.

She isn't you though mental health issues and illnesses are not all the same.

I guess I have a similar situation albeit a little more stable and supportive.

I am a later diagnosed autistic woman with 3 children and recently discovered we’re expecting a fourth, although it has been a very hard decision constantly back and forth but we have decided we are not going to go through with the early pregnancy, for the only reason being we do not think we would manage having a fourth so close in age to our youngest (18m) who requires us to have physical energy.

I am however with the father of all 3 of our children, eldest is 14. I do have some trauma from experiences along the way of raising our two eldest autistic children not from them but from the difficulties it took getting them educational support they needed when young.

however I have mostly healed and moved on, but I just do not feel I have the physical energy to manage a newborn alongside a very active toddler who doesn’t appear to be autistic.

I am quite proactive with things in life, especially regarding my children. If I followed my heart I would have had this baby in a heartbeat, but I know it wouldn’t be fair on anyone. Our lives would go from feeling balanced yet difficult to struggling, and it is quite scary.

I always knew I wanted children and particularly I always wanted four as a teen imagining her future life. I thankfully have very supportive parents, I never had a sister growing up and felt I missed out of that opportunity especially given the fact I really struggle making and maintaining friends and even more so with females, I find it so complex. So to me a daughter was a must, however I was blessed with 3 boys, and the desire for a daughter vanished because of how much I love my boys and am used to boys. I wanted four children though not just for me, but for them (especially so them being autistic too) because friendship can be hard and family atleast to me is a lot easier, more natural to remain close to. So they would also have eachother in life, I’m very close to my family and my children are raised close to us so fingers crossed it all remains that way, however I know it’s not always the case with families. But ideally they would always have eachother, and the more siblings means the more support/people they’d have. That has always been my way of looking at it for me personally.

Presumably, the sort of men who can't afford to be fussy.

The situation the OP is talking about isn't you though. You only have one child.

If you have severe MH difficulties then I think the responsible thing is to not have children, yes. Generally children with parents with conditions like BPD have traumatic childhoods. Having kids isn’t some god given right - you’re talking about a human being. Having some MH conditions makes you unsuitable to raise kids and it will be the kids who suffer if you decide to do it anyway.

I find it quite worrying you think such trauma just stops one day. Most people won't even recognise they have it. It also takes generations to rectify it.

Someone having trauma doesn't mean they cannot care for their child. Some will find it hard, others will find it easy just like the range of parents without trauma. Most people have trauma in their lives so that should not be a reason for not having kids or there would be hardly any kids in the world. The theory of stable/unstable is also gone with the wind too not sure why we are still using the 4 humours to describe mental health! Her trauma isn't mental health issues it is a normal response to what has happened to her and it doesn't put her at risk of harming the kids either - that is a myth. Abused people are less likely to abuse others.

Also we do not know her reason for pregnancy - it could be choice, it could be contraceptive coercion, it could be rape, it could be stupidity. It could be all of the above.

I assume a lot of the time it's a difference in opinion about when a pregnancy is a baby.
You see it more clearly on posts about later pregnancy, some women view it as a proper baby whos just still in the womb at 24 weeks if not born yet, whereas others view it as just a potential baby but not yet being one.
I'd imagine the same views earlier lead to whether people see it as "it already exists so make the best of it" compared to "if you terminate it won't turn into a baby so is the better option".
Combined with personal experience of if they or others they know have either had terminations they've been glad about after or if they've had trauma/regret after.