Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

[Helpwithdivorce]

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

It is because of today’s society that a lot of children are growing up not being able to be their true selves when they are having it thrown at them that they are allowed to be identified as whoever and whatever they want. Whether that be a boy or girl, a trans, non binary and the most stupid one of all if they really really want to they can be identified as a fish🙈

There are course some genuine children who are unhappy in their bodies but there are also some very attention seeking parents who will use their children to get themselves the attention that they desperately crave.

If I was the leader of a group and in this situation then I would explain to the mother that if her son can give me an explanation as to what he believes is a transgender then I may actually take this mothers case seriously.

Well they could all come to Beavers where it is a non issue.

It isn't always that easy as, one of mine went to boys brigade as the waiting list for beavers/cubs was so long he'd never get to the top. One went to rainbows/brownies as we didn't have a local beavers group. One went to beavers and I became a leader. I wanted them to have a nice activity after school and I went with what was available.

@TheignT but the waiting list issue affects every group. Whereas the single sex issue only affects Guiding; Scouting and Woodcraft Folk and so in are mixed sex.

Thomas can apply to any of the mixed sex organisations, just not the one for girls only. That’s the simple bit - there are a number of organisations the child could apply to. Just not the one for the opportunity sex.

Whether or not they’d reach the top of the list is entirely separate.

But it isn't as easy as saying just go to another group as there might not be another group or they might not have spaces. So just saying go to beavers, which is great I loved my time as a leader with beavers, can't work if there isn't a beavers group.

Has the OP confirmed that this is a boy called Thomas or a girl who wants to be called Thomas and mum says is trans and how would that affect things, I mean if Thomas is actually a girl who is presenting as a boy called Thomas would she be welcome at rainbows? So you might be wrong and there isn't another group nextdoor.

How does a 4 year old even understand the concept of ‘transgender ‘? Surely this has come from the parent.
Both my DS enjoyed playing with ‘girls ‘ toys but I wouldn’t have dreamt of labelling them transgender.
They both joined beavers, cubs, scouts and explorers (all groups which welcome girls and boys).
Both are now adult men.

if the group is identified as ‘girls only ‘ then according to the law then you are perfectly entitled to point the mother in the direction of the nearest beaver group.
It sounds like the guidelines from girl guiding need to be updated to adhere to the law. Or they could say that they are open to girls and boys (and possibly change their name).

As an aside I would have loved to join cubs (wasn’t open to girls back then), I tried brownies but hated being with so many girls, I am definitely not transgender, I just enjoy doing boy stuff sometimes. Previously referred to as a ‘tomboy’.

As a past cub/scout leader I don’t envy you!

If you volunteer to become a leader, waiting lists often are irrelevant and you will be given priority, because if you don't they can't run sessions.

Its not always the case, but groups will try and accomodate parent and child as a package because it ensure the viability of the group to actually run for all the other kids.

Also, you can also set up additional sessions for scout sessions under the umbrella of a current group.

So if Monday night cubs in your community is full, you can volunteer to set up a secondary section on a Wednesday night.

Our group has done this in the past. Its all down to the availbility of leaders. If theres 'no spaces', the opportunity to get organised and create some, is still there.

"How does a 4 year old even understand the concept of 'transgender'?"

They can't. They can barely understand the concept of putting their own shoes on the correct feet.

That's how I became a leader at beavers/cubs. It was also why there was a boy at the rainbows group DD went to. His mother was the leader, he wasn't officially a member but did everything with the girls. He was the same age as my DD and the choices were he was in the group, his mother left and someone else volunteered or the group closed. So he went along with mum. Don't know what happened when his age group moved up to brownies as we moved.

Not everyone can though and there can be other issues like our rainbows leaders bringing her son along or my friend with baby twins when her DD was joining beavers or the mum who used to drop her son off early at beavers on her way to work and then his dad picked him up after he'd finished work.

That also depends on the hall space. Not every group has their own hall, many groups rely on church halls, which may well have Guides and other groups occupying the hall on different nights.

Hall space may also restrict some groups from starting Squirels too.

There’s a lot of discussion here about why this (presumably male) child might not be able to join Beavers or a different group which is aimed at both boys and girls.
This is irrelevant.
If the child is male, he cannot join Rainbows which is for girls only. It’s not up to the Rainbow leaders to find an alternative group for him, that’s on the parents.
Girlguiding policy at the moment says that “transgirls” are welcome, but they also allow Leaders to manage their own waiting lists in a way that suits their own group.
so, OP, manage your waiting list in a way that suits you. Put Thomas at the bottom and carefully keep him there. Avoid getting into trouble with GG now, because it’s pretty likely that they will be forced to update their policy in the light of the Supreme Court judgement anyway, so my advice would be to delay things till GG see sense and then you can (with support of your DC) say to Thomas’s parents that he has been removed from the waiting list, and why, without any reprisals at all.
and you get to keep a role you enjoy, and the Rainbows get to keep their girl only space. Win win.

How sad if this is actually a little girl who wants to be Thomas and her mum is trying to introduce her to a fun activity for girls.

I think that the OP does need to establish the sex of the child before removing them from the waiting list because they are a boy.

However, it's the mum who has described the child as 'transgender'.

Somebody else would just register the child and tell the leader of the group 'oh she likes to be called Thomas' when accepted, if indeed that were still the case by the time she reached the top of the list.

Merrymouse, the problem is that as a Guiding leader, OP is not allowed to question the sex of a child. She is supposed to just accept it. As far as GG policy goes, if they say they are a girl, then they are, regardless of their actual sex. Several leaders have been kicked out of Guiding for this issue.

But she hasn’t even been clearly told the sex that the child identifies as.

There’s no tick box for male or female on the online registration form for any Girlguiding section.
Leaders are expected to assume all applications are from girls.
and in cases like this, they are not allowed to ask.

Even if it is a girl who wants to be a Thomas, that still involves Op having little children going along with Thomas pretending to be a boy.
And trying to explain what Trans is. A pretence. Having the children call them by the opposite sex.

What toilets does Thomas use? Rainbows will be expecting the children to be independent going to toilets.

Is it appropriate to be allowing a 4yo girl to use the men's toilets alone? Especially if they are on an outing to a pantomime or similar public space.
Even their weekly meeting halls might be sharing toilets with other groups.

Nobody can actually definite 'living as a woman' so God only knows what 'living as a boy / girl' actually means.

I can totally get why Op doesn't want that drama in her life. Or the headache of trying to manage it in a group setting.

And now I feel sorry for the schools having to deal with such nonsense when all they want to do is teach 4yos to read and write.

I can understand why the OP wouldn't want to have the conversation, but I don't think there is any reason why they wouldn't be allowed to check the child's details, given that Thomas is usually assumed to be a boy's name.

For all the OP knows the applicant thinks that Rainbows is mixed sex. It's clear from this thread that there is confusion about the rules of different organisations.

I don't think there is that much confusion check the websites clues are in the names.
The four big uniformed organisations for children Girl Guides, Girls Brigade, Boys Brigade and Scouts.

Which one is mix sex?

The only confusion is GG and their inclusion policy that's needing brought into line with what the law actually says.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can assume that a random member of the public has checked a website.

Despite the deceptive names both the Girl Guides & Girls Brigade are mixed sex organisations because they accept boys whose parents think they are girls.

You register a child for a place at Rainbows by going on their website (Girlguiding.org) and selecting the link that says “register a child”. The word ‘girl’ is everywhere, from the first page. 20+ mentions of ‘girl’ or ‘girls’ on the home page alone. Every photo shows girls. On the registration form you have to answer the question “was this girl previously a member of Girlguiding?” You’d have to be spectacularly dense to miss it.
you can’t join Rainbows without going through this, it’s not optional.

I still think that even within the terms of Girl Guides (non legally compliant) t&c's, it's fair to check that a child called Thomas 'identifies as' a girl.

I would also never underestimate how spectacularly dense the general public are.