Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

[Helpwithdivorce]

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

That all makes perfect sense. Thank you.

Thank you for your reply. I agree with everything you say. All that is, of course, why the "instant affirmation" model and the labelling of any in-depth investigations as "conversion therapy" are so pernicious.

You think that kids who have parents who are sexual offenders are not being abused in someway at some level?! There is a high chance they are, even if the parents haven't been prosecuted for crimes against them. And even if they haven't that sure as hell isn't going to be a normal healthy relationship for various reasons.

although ND is currently thought to be genetic (not inherited)

Genetics play no part in brain injury, FASD is not genetic, age is not dependent on genetics, malnutrition is not genetic or do you not mean neurodiversity but actually mean autism?

Neurodiversity is another trendy phase using forced teaming to push the demands of an online autistic/adhd (or self ID autistic/adhd) community. Demands that harm many other autistic/adhd individuals, especially those with profound autism. There is a huge overlap between this online community and transactivists.

error

I agree. But I 100% believe that was not what you meant when you talked about "sexually abused kids (who) are trans" and decided to abuse me and make vile insinuations about my family for no good reason at all. (And of course no apology or recognition/acknowledgement of the unacceptable nature of your attack on me has been forthcoming.)

Luckily others have responded to my post in a useful, rational and polite manner, in marked contrast to you. Unfortunately your rant reminded me uncomfortably of the vile, abusive TRAs I battle daily on Twitter/X.

I won’t respond to you again so if you feel the need to double down even more on your error and revolting rudeness, feel free. Presumably it makes you feel good.

Brilliant posts from @soupyspoon and @ArabellaScott - feeling one is "in the wrong body" can only ever be some kind of maladaptive response to something in that child's life.

We only think that there's validity to it outside of the child having a mental illness, or being abused, or the like (as @soupyspoon outlines) because in the West, we tend to try to separate mind & body.

The mind/body separation is seen as an "issue" in philosophy - and it's a "problem" according to psychiatrists - it indicates a real dissociative condition in the sufferer. eg an anorexic looking in the mirror and seeing themselves as "fat."

Our consciousness might feel independent from our material bodies, but that's an illusion. We are our bodies. Consciousness has a material origin, originating in the complex systems of our whole bodies.

And I think women come to understand this: we have to take effort to control our menstrual cycle for example, and our fertility. And childbirth is one of the the most bodily, non-in-one's-head, non-mind experiences a human can go through.

Neurodiversity often means that people are less able to cope with difficult decisions or make unwise decisions because they are less able to assess the potential consequences or risks of that situation.

So you have two factors here - black and white thinking and the logic that if you don't 'feel male' by default the only other alternative is you therefore must be male.

And then you have children with dysfunctional lives - potentially because their parents are neurodiverse too (genetics) and that places that child in a situation which they find difficult to cope with for whatever reason.

Both leave these children vulnerable.

The key point from Hannah Barnes book was that these children very frequently had complex MULTIPLE needs. It wasn't just one factor impacting on them. It was multiple ones. Thats the stand out point more than any other.

The book says that many of the children had so much going on, that wasn't being unpicked and addressed and the default was to ignore all this and go straight to puberty blocks / hormones after four appointments. Basically there was NO psychological support and consideration and this got worse over time because of activists pushing affirmation only. It became cultlike. It ignored cases they saw that were not having good outcomes, because they were so swept up in there only being one possible 'solution' / outcome. It was a conveyer belt devoid of individual care and critical thought about why.

Thus you would almost expect a high level of neurodiverse children who had some sort of difficult situation going on at home, to be most likely to be caught up in a scandal of this nature because by definition the very children who ARE more vulnerable than other any other child.

Genetics and background feed into each other and create complex needs. They aren't somehow separate. I don't think you can have a parent who is dysfunctional and it ultimately not affect you, even if that parent's worst dsyfunctional behaviour isn't aimed directly at you. It adds stress to the dynamics of the household regardless. Chaotic lives are the result of complex multiple needs and they of course impact mental health.

This is precisely why the prison population is massively over represented with neurodiversity too.

Would you want to explain to 4-7 yos what trans means?
Or have them go along with the idea that a child is what they identify as?
Regardless of which way Thomas is going it's a piece nonsense. Nobody is born in the wrong body, children like to pretend lots of shit, being dinosaurs, being puppies doesn't mean you actually need to indulge in it.
Could you imagine rocking up at doggy daycare with a child, this is Thomas he identifies as a puppy?

I would like to identify as a multimillionaire, unfortunately my bank 🏦 doesn't indulge in my dreams!

The SC ruling made it clear that 'sex' means biology not identity and that single sex spaces are just that. No need to wait for guidance before respecting the law. A parent who wants their son admitted to a girls only group should be directed to mixed sex groups. A girls group is for girls; presumably the parents of the girls already in the group chose it for their daughters because it is girls only. A 'trans 4 year old'? Really?

This is precisely why the prison population is massively over represented with neurodiversity too.

Neurodiversity is a group measure - it refers to the diversity of the whole population. The prison population cannot be over represented by diversity. What you mean is specific conditions, like ADHD and autism are over-represented in the prison population. ADHD is over-represented because part of the condition is lack of impulse control.

Left handed people are ‘neurodivergent’ but don’t have issues with black and white thinking, neither do those with dyscalculia. ND is force teaming and blurring the boundaries - it is an example of ‘queering’.

And please do not say ‘lived experience’!

Fair enough...

Sorry, I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about ND!

I don’t blame you Op. I totally agree with you. It is a shame that children will lose out if the unit closes but people need to stand their ground about this shit.

This policy is under review following the Supreme Court ruling. If GG continues to include boys they have become a mixed sex organisation and will have to update their charitable aims.

I didnt use the term neurodiversity, I said ND which (without making every post unbearably long with caveats for everything) is generally understood by most and certainly those of us who work with these comorbidities in girls in particular who say they are 'trans' to be ASD/ADHD etc - neurodivergence.

I havent worked with one single child yet who says the are trans who ISNT either diagnosed ND or on the pathway and very very likely.

It is a huge concern in my line of work that the child isnt being supported with their ND to understand themselves, understand why they feel odd, different, out of sorts, 'wrong'.

I dont disagree with the harm to those with ASD by the so called trans community, you dont need to take such a tone in your response.

is generally understood by most and certainly those of us who work with these comorbidities in girls in particular who say they are 'trans' to be ASD/ADHD etc - neurodivergence.

Neurodivergence is not just ASD/ADHD though. That is my point. It is force-teaming other conditions: DCD, Dyslexia, dyscalculia, learning disabilities, cerebral palsy, epilepsy, auditory processing disorders, sensory processing disorders, acquired brain injuries, foetal alcohol spectrum disorders, genetic conditions, dementia, Tourette’s syndrome, congenital brain differences eg from rubella or congenital hypothyroidism, impact of malnutrition, parasites eg toxoplasmosis, stroke, left-handedness, very high IQ, depression, schizophrenia, etc. ASD/ADHD within the ‘neurodivergent community’ is equivalent to T within the LBGTQ+ community - a small online community representing a small minority that uses the broader community to create heft for their demands.

you dont need to take such a tone in your response

Says someone who hasn’t tried to advocate for ‘neurodivergent’ conditions that aren’t ASD or ADHD.

Im not going to respond any further to this as its off tangent, ND is not generally used to define many of the conditions you cite by most professionals

https://www.gov.scot/publications/learning-disabilities-autism-neurodivergence-bill-consultation/pages/4/

”when we use 'neurodivergent people' this refers generally to: people with learning disabilities, people with learning difficulties such as dyslexia, autistic people, and a wide variety of people whose neurology is different by virtue of ADHD, Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD), and other conditions.”

https://www.mindroom.org/about-us/neurodiversity/

”An individual may be considered neurodivergent if the way they process information differs from what is considered typical. Forms of neurodivergence include for example Autism, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Tourette Syndrome or ADHD.”

https://www.hee.nhs.uk/our-work/pharmacy/transforming/initial/foundation/resources/edi/neurodiversity

”Neurodivergent conditions include Autism/Autism Spectrum Condition (ASC)/Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)/ Variable Attention Stimulus Trait (VAST), Dyspraxia, Dyslexia, Dysgraphia, Dyscalculia and Tourette’s Syndrome (TS) as well as many other conditions.”

@Helpwithdivorce. I thought about this overnight, and thought I'd add this.
I previously posted:
I share your views, but I know I'd have to seek help from friends as to how to word a reply. You don't want to leave her room to argue, and you don't want to do anything to trigger legal action. But you also don't want to lie.
I realized that if it were me, I'd "blame" it on the children. I'm assuming the mother has a little boy who likes girls' activities.
So I'd say something along the lines of: "I appreciate your interest, and we've discussed it, but don't think this would be a good fit. I understand your point of view, but we think that the children in the group see it as a group of little girls, and this might confuse or disconcert them. I'm not a professional psychologist, so not really equipped to explain it to them, and as the organizer I have to put the existing group first."

I have a memory from when I was 4 [50 years old now...!]
I remember being sat on the loo [as a boy having had a poo/wee/Pwee]
My Mum was before me, sat or crouched or kneeling down.
Why was she there? I guess as a 4 year old I couldn't be trusted to wipe my own bum? Or maybe my Mum thought I would try but there was a chance I'd get it wrong so she needed to be there? Is a 4 year old autonomous enough to toilet themselves?
Anyway she took that opportunity to teach me right from left, which I'd been struggling with. I remember her lifting and saying, "this is my left hand". And me, sat opposite, lifting my right hand and saying this is my left hand 😀! Anyway the other reason I remember it is because , while trying to teach me left from right, Mum used the word Thumb and I was saying Fumb, which rightly led me to 2 Terms of speech therapy while in First School [3 tier system].
Why am I talking about this?
Because a 4 year old can't identify as "trans". They, or maybe just me :), can't toilet themselves alone, so how can they make such a decision?
It's the parent(s), they are dominant force.

Anyway, just my imo.

I wonder who labelled the child so - Op or the mother?

In the original post, the op states the parents says he’s transgender.