Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

[Helpwithdivorce]

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

Children may say they are 'trans' or present with dysphoria for various reasons. Unfortunately, this may be a red flag.

Hannah Barnes' book 'Time to think', which looked in depth at children treated by Tavistock clinic, stated that children who say they are 'trans' are ten times more likely to have a registered sex offender as a parent.

There may of course be other reasons, but this one, although obviously upsetting and difficult, is one that looked at more.

Another reason why the sexual abuse analogy used above is so wrong. Sexual abuse is a reason for some children wanting to identify out of their sex. Yet as soon as ‘trans’ is mentioned any curiosity goes out of the window, is labelled ‘conversion ‘therapy’ or bigotry and potential for identifying abuse or comorbid conditions is shut down.

It's a tricky one because the beavers, cubs and scouts all accept girls. Arguably however, there are good reasons for Rainbows, etc to preserve female only spaces. I would think, however, that the need would increase as they got older.
Personally though I think that you would be doing the poor kid a favour to reject his application. No kid that young is definitely transgender. Alternatively you could add him to very bottom of the very long waiting list which he never reaches the top. It would be hard for the mother to prove it.
Another approach would be to refer him to beavers as that is a mixed gender environment and state that you cannot accept him into an all girls space. I agree that she is being dramatic.

It's a tricky one because the beavers, cubs and scouts all accept girls

That’s the reason I think it isn’t tricky, @Scentedjasmin ! While Rainbows is a girl only organisation, there’s a very similar group just next door that would allow Thomas to join, whatever the child’s sex.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

A four year old isn't trans anything.

The parents are using their child to play out their own political mind fucks.

And you're falling for it.

There isn't a four year old on the planet who is ruminating over their gender or who just happens to pick up the words associated with that debate.

Id just tell her its for biological girls only. Her child can join a mixed sex group.
her son is to young to know what trans is - its just the mum being a idiot.

That's rubbish for you. But you need to do what's right for you and you are doing them a favour. If more people take a stand then perhaps they will have a rethink. They carry on because they can get away with it. That's been the case all the way through, assuming and hoping that the women will just shut up and pyt up, feel bad about letting kids down or making anyone feel upset, so they bet on women not making a fuss.

Or it literally didn't occur to them that women exist in their own right and have their own thoughts. How else do we explain situations all the politicians meeting with TRA lobby groups to decide men can be women and including no women's groups? Deliberate exclusion to meet their goal would be better than "oops, we forgot about you/ oh, we didn't think you'd mind."

@Helpwithdivorce I’m also a leader, although in a different section. Current guidance from GG says we should accept trans girls and trans women (ie boys and men) In light of the SCR, GG have said they are “waiting for further guidance from the relevant authorities “ although they give no details of who the authorities are or when we should expect an answer.

Personally I think they are just kicking the can down the road and hoping it will either all go away or they will be forced to accept the ruling or possibly go mixed sex.

What I would say is this: you have a looong waiting list- just have the child on the list and send them the same “thanks for enquiring, your on the list we will be in touch” email. Hopefully we will all have clarity soon and GG will have to abide by the law.

Many Rainbow units have really long waiting lists, so realistically few can start at 4, mostly they are over 5.

This is the hill many leaders are prepared to die on- if forced to accept then we will resign and units will close.

'Hannah Barnes' book 'Time to think', which looked in depth at children treated by Tavistock clinic, stated that children who say they are 'trans' are ten times more likely to have a registered sex offender as a parent.'

I hadn't heard this before. That's really horrifying.

From a US study. TGAs means 'trans gender adolescents':

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8344346/

'In a nationwide online sample of US adolescents, TGAs had elevated rates of psychological, physical, and sexual abuse compared with heterosexual CGAs. Risk for psychological abuse was highest among TGAs assigned female at birth.'

'TGAs are more likely to report psychological, physical, and sexual abuse during childhood compared with heterosexual CGAs. Our findings align with those of previous studies finding high rates of childhood abuse among transgender individuals.22,24,25 Growing evidence indicates TGAs experience mental health problems at higher rates than CGAs, and childhood abuse likely contributes to the onset of mental health problems among TGAs. In the future, researchers should examine the role of childhood abuse in the etiology of mental health problems among TGAs.
In addition, our data set enabled us to examine subgroup differences in childhood abuse between TGAs and CGAs. In particular, TGAs assigned female at birth were more likely to report psychological abuse by parents or other adults in the household.'

This excellent post is worth re reading.

We're encouraging these children to develop the most unhealthy mindset. Just look at the unhinged responses to the Supreme Court clarifying the the definition of woman in the Equality Act is a biological woman. It's people who've never been told no and have developed a belief that they're entitled to trample over the rights of others. Anti social, narcissistic and bullying.

There is no such thing as a transgender 4 year old, any more than there is a Christian 4 year old.
There are 4 year olds whose parents impose their beliefs and quirks on them.

I completely agree.

@IridescentRainbowyour comparison of childhood sexual abuse just shows your manipulate and abusive ways. It speaks a thousand words.

you are feeding into this analogy and actively harming this child. As are the child's parents and whoever else is feeding into it. By making this child believe they are the opposite gender you are giving them a direct path to body dysmorphia and deregulation when they go through puberty which can lead them to completely crash and burn. Suicide, self harm etc.

you and your family are nothing short of abusive. You are trying to give off an image to show 'look how inclusive we are! Look how accepting we are' when you are in fact not accepting at all. You are not accepting of the child's biological sex and are causing a huge disconnect from biological sex and societal acceptance.

I hope the child seeks the help they need and I hope someone reports you and your family for child abuse.

your grandchild cannot change sex, just as much as they cannot become a power ranger, or who or whatever else they wish to be, for the very short period of time it enters the head.

you are not playing the loving role you think you are. You are harming children and completely disregarding safety of women and girls, as well as your grandchild by feeding into this complete hysteria.

its because of people like you the government made this new ruling. And thank goodness they did.

Which is why most Christian’s denominations have some sort of commitment to faith at an older age - be it first communion, adult baptism, confirmation…

But also Christians do not require non Christians to make a statement of faith everytime they speak to a Christian whereas trans ideology does.

I agree too. The pp hasn’t helped their GDC, anyone using that approach for a four year old is inflicting a lie.

And remember this PP has normalised their child and siblings lying about themselves to those around them. No consideration is given to the children who have been led to believe their playmate was one sex and who will soon find out that they have been deceived for years by the person they considered a friend.

this is a huge valid point.
they are teaching their children it's okay to lie. About really impactful things too.

they really are very dense if they can't see the harm they're causing.
poor kid.

Isn't it just?

It's a flag for family break up, being gay, homophobic parents, Munchausen parents, autism and sexual abuse.

The fact it's STILL not being recognised DESPITE all the whistleblowers from the Tavistock saying just how complex these cases were and just how unsuitable they were to be referred for medicalisation IS the scandal. The scandal is STILL ongoing, and there is enough evidence to show what was happening.

And STILL we get family members coming here to scold us about how unaccepting we are about their prepubescent child who transitioned at AGE FOUR.

People really need to engage their brains here. A four year old can not decide they are the opposite sex and therefore must be allowed into a single sex organisation because they do not have the capacity to make these decisions. This is 100% the parents looking to make a point in their community.

You pretty much can not get more red flags if you tried.

I hadn’t heard it before either. It really is horrifying.

In preparation for the pushback I know I will get from some ideologically captured family members if I quote this statistic, I do have to say, though, that I’m wondering whether there’s any possibility that the children have inherited some sort of sexual dysfunction and really do feel they are the other sex (something I’ve always denied is possible).

@ArabellaScott , does the Hannah Barnes book explore this?

Are you fucking serious???

A child who has been abused, is a child who has been abused.

The idea that sexually abused kids are trans because they have some sort of sexual dsyfunction rather than trauma from being abused is one I find difficult to see being even suggested.

These are children who were classed as having exceptionally difficult backgrounds and needs. Many have been treated as being emotionally older than they were - they didn't have the emotional capacity to make some of these decisions (often because of autism or other complex needs affecting emotional maturity). Once again its the adultfication of abused children as a narrative we are seeing coming into play.

And you ask if they actually might be dsyfunctional rather than abused??? An abused CHILD can become dysfunctional BECAUSE of abuse.

I am stunned I actually have to make this post.

If you have family members who will pushback on these grounds, you really need to be asking some hard questions about them. As well as your own ideas. Is there something dark in your own family history to make you and family members think this???!

You need to improve your reading comprehension before you sound off.

It didn’t say that the sex-offender parents had offended against their own children.

Rants like yours, and your vile insinuations, do a great disservice to the gender-critical cause (which I ardently support and argue daily for).

You think that parents who sexually offend other children have no effect on their own children?!

That’s not what you said. You talked about "sexually abused kids (who) are trans".

Shame you don’t seem to have the honesty to admit you misunderstood.

Personally from what Ive seen throughout my career is that there is an emotional dysfunction, usually by way of one or all of these factors, sexual abuse (in or out of the home), trauma/loss, being ND

The emotional dysfunction can hook itself into any factor of that child's psyche and personality. For some they have become fixated on not being a girl or a boy (it largely affects girls, boys express their fixations in other ways generally).

And unsafe adults around them have termed this 'trans'. This is because the socially accepted narrative has become that you can change sex and also that its become common to use the word gender when its about sex (even on this thread).

There is a trend of it being fashionable, socially captivating, rewarding. If you feel emotionally distressed, bereft, isolated, different, awkward, its likely very satisfying to suddenly find yourself special and validated and given the attention you (think you) want.

So no I dont believe the emotional dysfunction is inherited as such, although ND is currently thought to be genetic (not inherited)

Samiloff, I don't know, sorry.

We certainly need to start asking, when a child expresses distress or discomfort about their body or their sex, why that might be.

The narrative that a child can be 'born in the wrong body' is clearly hokum, and incredibly damaging, not just because it may set the child on a path to puberty blockers, medication, and surgery, and not just because it is destabilising to affirm a delusion, and not just because of the effects on others and wider society, but also because it risks missing or glossing over the many other issues that are so often described as 'co morbidities'.

Children expressing gender distress or incongruence or dysphoria need support, and help, for 100% sure.