How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

Her daughter is clearly neurodivergent, so any of these punishments, she would not link to her behaviour. FFS threatening an 8 year old with the police is ridiculous, most sibling have physical fights growing up!

Your poor children.

A father who suffered an abusive childhood, then completely checks out from parenting, after their mother has a breakdown.

Has your husband had counselling to recover from his childhood?

Have you had support to recover from your own breakdown?

Are you seeking couples counselling for your relationship?

Are you both seeking parenting training?

Likely learning difficulties / neurodivergence in the mix - this doesn't come out of the blue; it's genetic.

Have you both looked into the possibility you may both also be ND?

What's happening re your child's assessment, and how are the school helping and supporting you all?

The problem isn't your daughter, her behaviour or how to punish her.

If you plant a seed in a bed of damaged soil the plant can't be expected to thrive.

You're looking in the wrong place. It's not the kids who need sorting out. It's you two. Get some therapy under way.

Is taking away her competition a consequence that makes sense? Surely the consequence needs to link better to the behaviour. She’s worked hard at her sport, sounds like she’s struggling at school so why take away the thing that supports her self esteem?

Exactly this! Sport is where she feels equal to her peers as she’s struggling academically!

Sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate Op

You describe your DD as young for her age, immature and does not respond well to perceived criticism

All flags for ND
Punishing her isn't working
She's emotionally disregulated and unable to cope with her feelings
I would get her assessed for ADHD/ Autism

Stop all stuff like trolley pushing/ competitive stuff -mine were never allowed as its just a pain for other people and a source of conflict

Focus on what she needs to regulate
Atm you are in a battle
Put the swords down and talk to her about her feelings and what makes her overwhelmed.
There is tons of advice in the SN/ ND section that will help

Your child sounds very unhappy, her behaviour is because she is unhappy, you are responding by removing the things that do make her happy. You need to work on managing her emotions rather than 'punishing'. Punishing her isn't going to work, she needs emotional support to learn to regulate her emotions. Clear instructions about what is going to happen and when. Not being referred to as 'sulky' but instead, 'you don't seem happy today, is there something you want to talk about/something we can do to cheer you up'. Give her lots of love and positive attention.

bascially we are applying adult logic and understanding to basically kids logic and understanding, and getting crossed wires in the process b ut still hoping for a positive result ? @OhShutUpThomas

I was thinking about this. I'm single parent and I haven't done punishments with DS ever.

Do I just have an exceptional well behaved child? I don't think so. I just think he's had no siblings to deal with and a very calm and safe home with the full attention of his parent. If he's got angry or overwhelmed, generally he will go to his room to calm down and we'll talk it out later.

It sounds really hard for you. But a lot of change has happened for your children. Maybe they need a bit more time to just be and relax rather than doing stuff.

Plus it is the end of the school year and they're all a bit frazzled by now.

Phillipa Perry's books aren't bad. The one titled the book you wish your parents had read.

Have a think about why you react the way you do and how things were for you as a child too.

no advice but Im following because my soon to be 8 year old is becoming rude and is talking back at home and at school and is also mean to friends one of a sudden.

LTB

"when a child just doesn't get it"

You have to teach her. You seem to keep telling her she'll be punished for something whilst never actually identifying her underlying needs, and teaching her how to appropriately meet them. You're skipping all of the parenting and just telling her 'do as I want (even though you don't know how) or i'll hurt you". You are effectively tantruming back at your overwhelmed 8-year-old child, she's getting no co-regulation from you (actually, the absolute opposite) and providing no help at all in teaching her to self-regulate. Then you question why she "just doesn't get it". She doesn't get it because you aren't supporting her. She needs support with emotional regulation, to be taught to identify her emotions and how to manage them. This is usually done with toddlers and built upon over time.

One of the first things you do is model effective emotional regulation yourself (clue, it doesn't involve using fear and control on others to get what you want when you feel dysregulated). You show her through your actions, tone and words that you're on her side, that you're her parent and you're working with her to help her. As parents, it is our job to support our children and teach them the skills they need to manage independently. It's no worse than shouting at a baby for crying because they can't communicate any other way. Children need guidance and teaching; they do the best with the current skills and capabilities that they have. You have to be aware of how she's feeling, what she needs, you have to model and guide her through how she should be managing her feelings and how to express herself safely and appropriately. She's overwhelmed and dysregulated. Emotional awareness and self-regulation, and executive function. This is primarily done through modelling and parenting style but some children need more guidance and support than others.

I am sorry that things are so difficult atm. I hear you. I'm not going to suggest that you divorce/split up the family because quite frankly you need a certain amount of energy to do that and it doesn't sound like you have the energy to do that at the moment. So long as he is not abusive, it is ok to park that one for another day.

There are three things I would do immediately in your situation:

1. Get her a tutor if you can afford it. Find some nice student or similar who can come and sit with her for an hour 2-3 times a week, listen to her read, write a story or two with her, play some games and give her some 1-1 attention. That will work much better than you trying to catch her up on her work.
2. Ignore as much as you can behaviour-wise. Don't sweat the small stuff and don't punish loss of emotional control (i.e. tantrums) unless it results in bad behavior like hitting.
3. Really scare her over the hitting/physical violence. I've discussed several times with my older DC how physical violence is absolutely unacceptable to the extent that adults go to prison for it. Children don't, because they are still learning and have less responsibility, but it is so serious that they can be excluded from school for it or social services will get involved if they are violent. However angry we are, hurting others is just a huge no-no. Be clear with her in advance on what punishments you will impose if she hurts her siblings or you.

I'd also shower all three children with as much love, attention and low-key quality time as you can to make up for their other parent's failure. And to do that, you need to be kind to yourself and to them. Lower expectations, cut back on what you do out of the house, focus on exercise, sleep and wellbeing for everyone including you. Give everyone a bit of a break, you've been through a lot of upheaval recently. Just take some time for everyone to recharge their batteries.

I wouldnt shop with my teo boys tbh. Its a horrible nightmare. I either take 1 if I can, use deliveries or pop out when I can. A big shop with kids is a cross I don't need to bear.
Mine are constantly bickering it drives me mad. Have to seoarate thrm frequently and they have tvs and playstations in their rooms for this reason. I dont agree with tech in rooms and thought I would be the no tech parent with my kids happily playing board games together but alas, it didnt really work out and having them able to watch their own things quietly for a few hours here and there is the only way through.
I also tend to punish them both if it escalates. There is rarely a totally innocent party.
They do actually get on well for small periods but inevitably that escalates into winding up amd then someone takes it too far.

OP, you sound like you are doing an amazing job in incredibly difficult circumstances.

Many kids including ND or LD don’t know what to do with all their energy when it bubbles up and so it comes out in outbursts.

Could you make the next book something about managing emotions? Use it as a discussion point? (But head off arguments by making this a 1-1 discussion) Kids show their emotions in different ways and don’t instinctively know what do do with big feelings or how to pause, take a deep breath, count to three move their body to shake it out, they have to be clearly taught individualised strategies.

Taking about it in a structured way could help your DD learn what she’s feeling (where in your body is the big feeling?) and what her other options are when feeling this way (if she feels extra energy in her legs then something with safe movement, if she feels it in her head then singing/chanting/counting could be options).

She will learn, slowly, that a feeling happens, and she can choose what happens next. This way she’ll feel proud of her responses not guilty for her feelings.

Give lots of clear praise:—
Im proud of you for trying hard to stay calm, I saw how you walked away instead of hitting and im very proud of you, I can see you are really trying with X, Wow you used really gentle hands when you did X. Also things like:- I understand you feel very disappointed when I said no, I’d feel sad too, would you like a cuddle or some space? (I.e. I’m not changing my mind but I’m acknowledging your feelings)

I think the message I’m trying to say is show your DD you are on her team. Kids want their parent to hold and contain their emotions - this is not the same as you tolerating all behaviour, it is you being the wiser, kinder one who is there to guide.

FFs, maybe OP should toughen it up a bit. A 'telling off' is like something out of Mallory Towers. Way too old for this type of behaviour. No 8 year old should be having a tantrum, so sell the pony. I have 4 children and none would pull this crap.

to all those saying punishment is the answer - then why are our prisons full and reoffending rates are high with most prisoners having been in prison before - punishment doesn't work but it is a way of society dealing with crime, doesn't mean it works

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your DD. She’s a normal kid who’s been through some horribly stressful family situations and this is her way of reacting to it. I would concentrate on making life as predictable and stress free as possible- knock extra curriculars on the head for the time being and make life boring and safe until you’re all on a more even keel.

@OhShutUpThomas you’re doing a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances, be kind to yourself

personally I’d let her go to the competition tomorrow (simply cause you made a mistake in how you handled it ).. but get her to “pay” in a different way (extra homework, clean up house etc)

also best advice from my boy’s consultant : say “when” you do this you ll get that …
not: “if” you do this you ll get that … for numerous reasons

you got some fantastic advice here !

start fresh with her… give lots of love to all DCs but mostly to yourself 😊

Totally agree. @JFDIYOLO do you, like me, relate to how the daughter is probably feeling in this situation? Your message is full of empathy for the daughter/children in this scenario.

Completely get that the op is struggling. It’s bloody hard being a single mum to three children, and having had a breakdown. But to the op, start working positively with your kids, not asking about punishments, or how best to punish.

Even if you think you’ve tried everything, I really doubt you have. My mum was unable to see beyond her own world view. She always wanted things done in a certain way, ie her way, and if they weren’t then lots of shouting/punishments. I think this may be how you are too. Note this was highly damaging to me.

Eg in this case, no trolly. Or no shopping after late night cinema. Or accept you can’t cope with the cinema and three youngish kids. You aren’t obliged to take children to the cinema, a night in with home made popcorn might have led to happier memories!

With your daughter, you know what she can be like, now work with that to lead to a positive outcome. So, she wants to do her sport, say you’d like to start again. That you love how passionate she is about her sport, what good friends she has in the sport, or whatever positives you see.

Tell her what she does right, and what you like about her. childhood is short, and even if you don’t quite realise it, she’s had a tough one (I’m the daughter of mother who also had a breakdown, and it’s worrisome and hard, even if I hid my worries with smiles). Good luck. Today is a new day for you all.

I think you probably do have an exceptionally easy child. I did with number one, he slept 12 or 13 hours a night, would eat anything and I never needed to move an ornament as he never touched anything he wasn't supposed to. Then I had number two who was a fussy eater, hardly slept and would wreck the house if not watched. One thing they both did was swim like fish from an early age. Then I had number three, lovely child but very fussy eater and swam like a brick, took years for them to learn to swim. Need I go on?

It is easy to think you have cracked it because something worked with your child but the more you have the more you learn.

Yes ok… ND parenting different ball game ..

She sounds very much like one of my DC, who has autism and is also being assessed for other issues. The description of her not understanding consequences and not understanding she’s to blame is spot on. For my DC, I find that they’re so focussed on the telling off that they don’t get anything else. It’s like a heightened over-sensitivity which completely swamps any thought of blame or guilt or any explanations being put forward by the parent.

I find it helps to pre-warn and ward off melt-downs. I also find it helps not to ‘tell off’ but to correct/explain in a calm, neutral tone. If you don’t do that, you’ll get the “Why are you being so mean to me?” for ages. What also helps is to leave DC in peace and alone for a few minutes (don’t talk, don’t try to explain further, don’t try to comfort) and then speak to them gently and reassure them that you love them.

DC is a little older than your DD but there has been some improvement, so keep that in mind. I think at age 8 they were probably at their worst.

OP youre doing great. I think I commented on your last thread about potential learning difficulties.

I think the reason your getting not appropriate advice is because on MN most posters focus only on the specific examples given and not the overall picture and what exactly youre asking advice for.

If you'd have posted a generic 'My DD who's 8 has learning difficulties and doesn't understand consequences to actions, how do I manage this when managing bad behaviour?' you'd have gotten much different replies giving you actual practical advice on your overall concerns rather than the nitpicking of your examples that doesn't address your overall issues.

Try and repost at a later date with something along those lines without giving examples (that'll just be focused on discarding the actual problem).

It'll all smooth itself out over time lovely. Be kind to yourself.

She is painfully aware that she is behind and struggling at school and she's carrying emotional baggage and feelings of inadaquacy because of it. You need to focus on, and praise and encourage the things she's really good at. It sounds like she resents her sister because she can't match up and she thinks her sister can do no wrong in your eyes.

She may have some Pathological Demand Avoidance issues but you just have to be calm and resolute and not give in to her nonsense. Tell her with firmness, patience and love why it's not okay to behave the way she does and that you will not be bullied or held to ransom by her behaviour. Let her have her sulks but don't pander to them. My youngest was very much like this, they also had some issues with struggling academically at school, and they did grow out of it. Doing just fine as a young adult now, 2:1 degree, okay job, no issues to speak of.

Possibly she is also picking up on the stress and resentment from you over their father's regular absences and lack of parenting involvement.

OP, I see you. You are in the middle of a hurricane. It is very, very tough to be in the situation you are in. You do not deserve to feel shame or guilt. You are doing your absolute best because you love your children. I see you.

I’ve been diagnosed in my 40s with ADHD and autism. I’m now seeking assessments for all 3 of my primary school aged children. Parenting children whose brains and nervous systems are not functioning in a ‘typical’ way, and who live in a society that works against many of their needs, is exhausting and fraught with trial and error. You are doing your best.

As others have said, read or listen to the latest edition of ‘The Explosive Child’. Your child is showing you that she struggles to meet the expectations placed upon her by adults. She is not naughty or defiant or manipulative. She is struggling. You CAN help her, but if you view it as punishment and control you will escalate every problem your family faces.

Read about PDA and rejection sensitivity dysphoria. Read about how autism and ADHD present in girls - it may surprise you. There are very short questionnaires online that are the first stage of screening for ADHD and autism in children. She may not have these conditions but it may help to reframe how you view her behaviour and needs.

While you are taking all this in, reduce demands on everyone (including you) as much as you can. Keep the things that bring your family regulation and joy (eg sports, hobbies, routine and predictability) and drop the things that bring dysregulation and stress as much as you can (eg supermarket trips, disrupting routines).

Look into how you can help yourself and your children regulate your emotions and reactions more effectively. Jenna Free has a series of podcasts on this that are focused on ADHD but that doesn’t actually matter - what she is talking about is how to regulate a nervous system that is frequently in fight or flight. You may not feel this is you, but I would bet my house that it is. How could it not be? You are parenting alone in an extremely tricky situation in the midst of family trauma and disruption (house move, largely absent father). I advise you to work on regulating yourself so that your children can then co-regulate with you. Honestly, it is transformative and whilst it takes a lot of work, it’s not complicated work, it’s developing the awareness and emotional ‘muscles’ needed to change your thought patterns and reactions. I promise you that you can do it and then you can help your children to do it.

Talk to your children about the fact that ‘fair’ doesn’t always mean ‘equal’ and that they all deserve to be treated in a way that meets their needs and therefore supports the whole family unit to function well. Ask them what they love and enjoy doing. Ask them what makes them feel loved and valued. Then try to do some of that. Ideally do this 1:1 for a few minutes regularly so they can connect with you (I know how hard this is with 3 children!) and encourage them to write down how they feel or what they want or any messages to you that they find hard to say out loud. There are lots of journals out there for children who are struggling with self-esteem, etc, but you can just use blank notebook if they don’t need the journal prompts. My 8 year old daughter always tells me how much better she feels when she has shared something with me or written it down. Just getting it out of your head can relieve so much pressure.

I promise you things can get better. You and your children can thrive. You love them and you want to learn how to support them as effectively as possible. That is the best start. Give yourself the credit you deserve for doing something that is extremely hard and that nobody has yet given you the correct tools to do. You will get there.