So has WW3 just started?

[Newsenmum]

I can’t believe I’m not seeing more threads on this. Starmer back israel against Iran. Other Muslim countries are supporting Iran.

@DrPrunesqualer you're missing my point. We can all see the hypocrisy in Israel's actions: it is the poster child for unsanctioned nuclear weapons. It would also be daft to take comfort from the fact that Khomeini HAS given assurances, given that the Iranian regime is habitually caught out lying.

That doesn't make it fair game for Iran to do the same, nor is it sensible to accept that any non-proliferation assurances given by the regime are fit for anything but toilet paper. They lie and dissemble consistently and have done so for decades. Israel is right not to accept Iran's word, and the rest of us should be less credulous when it comes to the death-cultists in Tehran. Iran could take out Israel with one nuclear bomb and, for the reasons mentioned in the Matthew Syed article referenced upthread, is quite likely to do so if their appalling ideology is taken to its logical conclusion. Iran has consistently shown that it cares nothing for the lives of its citizens, so the usual MAD rules don't apply.

It's like a very toxic version of "my enemy's enemy is my friend" in terms of the false equivalence. Not trusting Netanyahu is fine, but does that make Khomeini reliable? Israel's actions in Gaza, however horrific and unedifying, do not automatically mean that they are wrong about Iran developing nuclear capability. As I said upthread, I suspect Mossad knows more than anyone, including the IAEA. Israel is certainly NOT wrong in pointing out why a nuclear Iran is a dreadful prospect.

You cannot have read the post about Iran. Israel are on the good guys side. Iran is on the other side and a regime no-one can trust. Fwiw I don't like Netanyahu and think it is about time he was removed by the Israelis - he'll go to gaol for fraud etc. too. Good.

As for Gaza, I would not trust Hamas and co as far as I could throw them - that means not at all.

The OT read through Christian eyes looks very different. But I think Hamas choose Oct 7th (red heifers notwithstanding) because it is the anniversary of the battle of Lepanto, when Turkey was pushed back from most of Europe.

You have conveniently forgotten that Iran has continuously allowed its nuclear facilities to be inspected by the UN nuclear agency for the last 20 years, and only this year has been found to be technically breaking non-proliferation rules, following America's unilateral breach of the agreement with Iran. That is a very long way from actually having nuclear weapons, and they were currently discussing returning to compliance in return for relief of sanctions.

Israel are on the good guys side.

😬

Not forgotten, conveniently or otherwise. Refining uranium to 60% is surely a bit more than a “technical” breach though? Nobody on this thread has any real idea of the actual stage that Iran has reached in terms of weapons capability, but it’s pretty clear that there is clear, blue water between what Iran says, and what it actually does. It would be foolish to pretend that we are dealing with honest, credible actors on either side.

Do you think the Iranian regime can be trusted, on this or anything? Your user name suggests that you shouldn’t!

I think the UN inspectors can be trusted because they are the people who police every other country in the non-proliferation agreement, and indeed identified those, like India and Pakistan who chose to break it.

Edit; and Israel chose to attack Iran just when it was negotiating with the US to return to that non-proliferation agreement. Which clearly didn't suit Israel as they have to manufacture dangerous risks to keep their own population under control.

Indeed @TriesNotToBeCynical, which is precisely why it’s of grave concern when the IAEA confirms, as it did earlier this month, that Iran has enough Uranium enriched to 60% purity to make 9 nuclear bombs. They also describe Iran’s “many failures” to cooperate since 2019, and its lack of candour.

Being worried about Iran describing Uranium enrichment as “non-negotiable” doesn’t mean that I am an apologist for Netanyahu, far from it. But this is not a Spielberg movie with binary good/bad actors.

@Vinvertebrate

"But this is not a Spielberg movie with binary good/bad actors."

Best one sentence summary so far.

That said it's very much in the UK's interests for Israel to bomb the crap out of Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Quite frankly if it was Lichtenstein or North Korea bombing Iran then I would still support them for it.

I’m not siding!

I want peace!

I do not like Netanyahu, his far right ( or any ) followers or the IDF. There’s currently no moving away from the current situation in Gaza and the lies of many months. The IDF are ramping up killing Palestinians trying to get aid whilst the world is blindsided by the Israel / Iran conflict.

This regime cannot be trusted.
They are not the good guys.

Sometimes war doesn’t have any good guys….worth a thought

The Israeli military is being trained in the U.K. and if that’s not backing Israel I don’t know what is.

I know @MiloMinderbinder925
Shocked me too.
There must be an extremely low bar for what’s good

They would only be usable for bombs with considerable further enrichment. Which requires new and different equipment from what they have got. So several steps away. Apart from 9 bombs being too little to engage in any kind of nuclear standoff.

It is only enrichment sufficient for nuclear power that they described as non-negotiable. The Americans wanted them to give up civil nuclear power "just to be sure" and to humiliate them. Edit: Israel tells so many lies it is hard to keep up with them.

But the obliteration of Israel (which is only 9 miles wide at one point) would only require one nuclear bomb. And the total destruction of Israel and Jews is what passes for Iranian foreign policy.

Neither you nor I have any clue what equipment Iran has got, nor what stage their capability is at. However, thanks to Israel, we know that its chances of taking those “further steps” you mention will, at the very least, be hindered by the deaths of so many nuclear scientists. The fact that it has done so with such precision, avoiding civilian deaths, is to its credit (and in sharp contrast to the retaliatory attacks by Iran in Tel Aviv and other cities, in which Israeli civilians appear to be a legitimate target). Do two wrongs make a right?

In falling over themselves to express disdain for Israel in any context, many on the “liberal left” are making themselves useful idiots, or even apologists, for one of the oppressive totalitarian regimes on earth.

We've always trained the Saudis as well.

The Iranians are seeking de-escalation and a return to negotiations.

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/a-battered-iran-signals-it-wants-to-de-escalate-hostilities-with-israel-and-negotiate-9feab4ae?st=HEEPNP&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Hoping it crystalises! Enough of it now.

Events are moving very fast.

I've just watched the TV station being blown up.

I think that happened before somewhere but a very long time ago.

Are you thinking of the Americans destroying the Al Jazeerah TV station in Baghdad?

I really can't recall you have a good memory.

One nuclear bomb...which Iran does not have.

Iran enriches to 60%, which is insufficient for military purposes, but is used for radio pharmaceuticals. Iran has a significant nuclear medical sector and supplies much of the middle east with medical isotopes for cancer diagnosis and treatment.

Iran does not want the total destruction of Jews, it has a large and vibrant Jewish community, including representation in parliament with a seat specifically reserved for representation of their Jewish community.

We do know what equipment Iran has and what stage their capability is at because Iran is a member of the IAEA and has regular inspections.

We also know that Israel has nuclear weapons, through the NUMIC theft of highly enriched uranium, satellite imagery of their Dimona facility and whistleblower leaks from employees there. We also know that they have the doctrine of "The Samson Option" of nuclear annihilation in the face of existential threat.

What we dont know, because Israel does not allow inspections and is not a member of the IAEA) is how many nuclear weapons Israel has, or what their payloads are. (Estimates range from 80-400 warheads, including Jericho III, which has a potential range of 6.5k km.)

The deaths of nuclear scientists (note that 40% of nuclear scientists in Iran are women btw!), is yet another war crime, to add to the many, many, MANY war crimes that Israel has committed just this year harms cancer patients far more than it harms a hypothetical, non-existent weapons programme. On the one hand you are celebrating the precision deaths of scientists....then on the other you are claiming that Israel does not target civilians.

Incidentally, London is rumoured to be on the Samson option list (with a 200-400kt payload). We know Israel has nukes, we know their range reaches London, we know that they have an official policy of nuclear annihilation in the face of existential threat, we know they have no regard for international law, we know that the country is headed up by a war criminal and we know that they are willing to kill millions of people.

You better be very confident that you have picked the right side here, cos you sure as fuck dont want to be living through a Threads rerun.

@willowtree99 I’m not celebrating anyone’s death, just pointing out that it’s far more nuanced than “Israel = bad, enemies of Israel = on the side of the angels” in this instance. The chances of Iran telling the truth about anything are about zero, and I certainly believe the IAEA over the regime, because they’re nutters.

The Jewish community you mention (in Tehran primarily) is much depleted since the Islamic revolution, about 10% of the original number (and 10k in a population of 90 million is not “large”). They are ethnically Persian and practice an ancient form of Judaism. It doesn’t mean the regime has a progressive, tolerant attitude to Judaism (or anything else), sadly.

And if you seriously believe that Iran does not want to destroy Israel, have a Google of “Quds day” (but not if you have a sensitive disposition).

Iran does not want the total destruction of Jews, it has a large and vibrant Jewish community, including representation in parliament with a seat specifically reserved for representation of their Jewish community.

Well I suppose that one seat makes up for them not being allowed to hold most government positions, or all the other discrimination they face.