How do you honestly feel about a baby having two mums?

[Corneliusthecamel]

Hi,

Recently, a close friendship has come to an end and it’s been difficult to process. Long story short - I am a woman married to another woman and I gave birth to a baby last year who was conceived via sperm donor/fertility treatment through the NHS. We are all really happy and she is beautiful.

A good, long term friend of mine has become increasingly distant over the past couple of years. I confronted her about this recently and she admitted that she struggles with my life choices and doesn’t feel it’s right that I have chosen to bring a baby up with another woman. She feels very strongly that a baby should have a traditional mum and dad unit where possible and feels that I am wrong for choosing this path.

Anyway, the friendship is over, and I think that’s the right thing for both of us - it’s not really possible to carry on when we both have such different views and experiences of the world.

But it has made me want to ask - what are your honest opinions of two women choosing to pursue fertility treatment and having a baby? Obviously it’s my life and I’m happy so in one way, who cares. But I truly didn’t think my friend held those types of views and often, people won’t speak their true thoughts in real life, so I am curious what people truly think about it

I have to say that I’m very grateful to have been raised by my mother and my father. They each gave me a different perspective on life and I feel that’s benefitted me.

Maybe I’m old fashioned but I do feel that both boys and girls benefit from having male and female nurturing role models.

Same.

I was fortunate to have a fantastic father. Unfortunately I didn’t meet either grandfather in a meaningful way as the last one died when i was a baby.
I’m married to a man who is a wonderful father. I think it’s a shame if a child misses out on important male relationships. And I think its will cause issues when they’re older if they dont know who their Dad is. You’ve only got to watch a few of those “Who do you think you are” type TV programmes to see how important it is for people to know their family.
So I’ve no objection to two women raising a child, but I’d think the child is missing out if there is no father figure around at all. And I would think the couple selfish, putting their wants above a child’s needs, but I wouldn't say anything.

I'm very much against surrogacy - the idea that a baby can be bought and taken away from its mother, many of whom coerced into doing so for one reason or another, I find abhorrent. Sperm donation is more of a grey area for me. It's not the fact that two women are raising a child, that doesn't bother me at all, but it's more that a child won't necessarily have access to information about 50% of themselves for many years. That's something I'm not sure how I feel about (and yes, I know that happens when sperm donation is not involved).

Don’t all children HAVE a mother and father? They can’t biologically exist without both…..

I was watching a home makeover type programme the other day - the American/Canadian identical twin brothers - and the family were two fathers and four adopted children who had been adopted over a period of time, not all at once. The fathers were so lovely and I felt immediately comfortable with them and their family. Like others I'm absolutely fine with two women but have felt uncomfortable with two men but this maybe helped me understand it a bit more. Recently what I've seen is men getting surrogates to have children for them, which I have issues with and sometimes they've seen like little accessories rather than a child who they will have to look after and care for for the rest of their lives.

The guys trying to move to a bigger house had chosen to give homes to children who nobody else wanted and there was so much love in the house, I came away from that episode feeling all soft and warm and I'm really glad I get to talk about it because it had an impact on me.

@Corneliusthecamel you and your wife and your little one, all love and congratulations because it's all about the love and be it one of each or two of the same who are any of us to judge, although I've acknowledged that I am a judgy when it comes to surragacy.

I think it is traumatic for a baby to be separated from the woman who birthed him or her because the relationship begins long before birth. For this reason I am not comfortable with surrogacy or babies being raised by two men, or any other setup which involves a baby being intentionally separated from hir or her birth mother.

If the baby's other parent is also a woman, does it matter?

Probably not in the sense that the baby has two loving parents.

Where the baby may be losing out is in the lack of a male role model at home and also potentially the lack of connection with the man who provided 50% of their DNA and half their ancestors.

The lack of a male role model is important and I would hope that a lesbian couple raising children together would try to give them close relationships with men, ideally grandparents, uncles or close friends who could act as father figures. In this sense the children of lesbian couples are no different to the children of single mothers where the father isn't around.

The DNA point is a weird one. I am very interested in genealogy and I think it would completely weird me out to only have half a family tree. If I had been conceived using donor sperm I think I would want to know who the donor was and find out about my paternal family tree but at the same time it would feel a bit weird and maybe slightly stalkerish if I literally didn't know any of the people in it. If I didn't know the name of my biological father I would definitely do an Ancestry DNA test and try to find out that way. But not everyone is interested in their ancestry.

In short, I don't think it's problem free, but I know lesbian couples raising happy, healthy, loved children and I don't think it's my place to judge. Especially when there are so many children in the world growing up in far more disadvantageous circumstances.

One thing the children of lesbian couples have going for them is the knowledge that they were deliberately brought into the world, often at considerable expense, by two parents who very much wanted to have them. They can be sure they're not "oops" babies who only exist because one or both of their parents failed to use contraception properly.

I am really shocked by the people who are not ok with two dads. We have several friends, neighbors, parents of DC classmates who are male same sex couples with children. They all live their children just as much as DH and I love ours. They are just as caring and thoughtful as we are! There are plenty of heterosexual couples who don’t put their kids first, are too career focused etc.

A child who grows up in a family with a mother and another female caregiver who they see as a second ‘mum’? I don’t have a problem with that. Sad if they have no contact with their father though.

You can’t literally have two mothers though, even if that’s how their child thinks of them both. A child has one mother and one father, and listing two mothers on the birth certificate is wrong in my view.

Honestly, I do have some reservations - the fact you're two women is a moot point to me provided that you are both good and involved parents. I think that's a hundred million times better than a male/female relationship where one or both parents is checked out in some way. I believe kids do best with two stable and solid caregivers who are reliable.

My issue is more with the use of donor sperm in general. I think it's crucial people can grow up to fully understand their medical history which is difficult when donors are used in this way, plus the idea that a number of people could be born from donor sperm and potentially end up dating is a concern. I don't think that's a fair thing to have to worry about as you go into early teen years, or as you get older and have worries about your health. I have a close friend who was adopted in a closed adoption from overseas and she has just been through a nightmare journey trying to get a health condition recognised which it turns out is hereditary - it was very triggering for her wondering if she had more information on her birth parents, would it have been picked up sooner/ could she have been better prepared for it. I think there are a lot of overlaps with that medically with use of donors unless you're going to keep in touch with that donor over the course of their lifetime.

I think the concept of why we have children is really complex and nuanced and I understand that urge and the challenges that go with it having had fertility issues in the past myself, but I think ultimately it comes down to whether we're having children for the children or for ourselves. I had made the decision to foster rather than go down the donor route because that, to me, felt like the more ethical choice in that respect. But that's each to their own and I'm not the ethics police. I have a friend in a same sex marriage who's done the same as you and I absolutely love her and her kids even though I personally wouldn't have chosen to go about it in the way that she did. I will still respect that it's her choice to make.

I will say that I've much less of an issue with children being conceived via donors if the donor is going to be known in the child's life and will be around and their donation is a one off as such. I know you can't always plan everything- my sons dad is no longer in his life so there may be gaps in his medical history that he won't be told about and that's something I need to think about how I'll manage carefully as he gets older but I certainly didn't bring him into the world expecting that to be an issue. Whereas for many donor parents, they are going into it knowing that will be a potential issue for their children down the line.

Women have always, historically raised children together.

So if a nice heterosexual couple desperately want a child but struggle with infertility and are categorically unable to conceive naturally, it's OK for them to have IVF on the NHS?

Whereas two females who also desperately want a child, and also cannot conceive without help, aren't allowed the same treatment?

Please explain how this makes any sense, and is not just homophohia?

I don’t agree with egg/sperm donation or surrogacy and I wouldn’t continue a friendship with someone who made the choice to use those.

I have a friend who is donor conceived and its caused her a lot of issues throughout life. She doesn’t agree with donor or surrogacy at all.

Same sex couples raising adopted children or children from a previous relationship, all good and completely different.

children need love is it not better that a child raised by a loving couple regardless or what type of couple they are. There are so many children brought into the world by people that treat them so badly. So does it matter what kind of couple their parents are as long as they are loving, patient and kind

I do believe kids need male and female role models but that does not need to come from male female couple. A same sex female couple for example could have a god father a male best friend or even uncle that fulfil this role .Children simply need to see how male and female people behave in society, from a close family member .They look up to see what is normal behaviour from parents and close relatives

In the nicest way possible, I couldn’t care less.

a loved child, is a loved child.

regardless of their parents genders.

Me too!

It seems so traumatic to remove a newborn from its biological mother . And, as a female, I cannot even begin to imagine not having my mother in my life!

2 mums great
2 dads great

Why are people so against 2 dads

Happy if a baby has a loving parent. Preferably 2 loving parents, but one’s better than none! Don’t care what sex they are. I don’t agree with surrogacy though. I know you’re not asking about that, but I thought I’d cover all bases!

I'm really disappointed with the attitudes to 2 dad's raising children.
My son and his partner have fostered a number of children for many years, and just recently adopted a gorgeous little boy with celebral palsy.
They have been fantastic parents over the years, better than I was in all honesty.
Children just need to be raised in a home where they are love and cherished.

@Redflamingos my DC's life would have been much poorer without their dad in it

What had OP's friend done to make her an idiot that you wouldn't do?

She thinks it's wrong, but didn't say anything until confronted. You think it's wrong, but won't say anything unless asked. What's the difference?

speaking honestly under cover of anonymity as someone brought up by a single mum until a boyfriend (then stepdad) came into the picture and started abusing me. Carried on for years until my mental health broke and I spent my 18th birthday in hospital on section.

I think the best upbringing for a child is to have its father and mother together and involved. Single parenthood is FUCKING HARD - financially, socially and in every way. Man we were POOR. Statistics consistently show that children from single parent families have poorer life outcomes and are more vulnerable to substance abuse disorders (which I did have, amongst other things). Especially bad outcomes for working class boys, and within that, Black boys have slightly worse outcomes than white ones (although that gap is closing).

Blended families are often lionised in telly and film but in reality they are fraught with risk.

Two mums, I have no opinion but I do think all children and especially boys benefit from having a positive and regularly present male role model.

Two dads I am not comfortable with. Surrogacy is a form of sexual-biological slavery and is vile. I do feel, based admittedly on a small sample (my social circle and wider network) that for gay dads it's more of a status symbol than a real genuine desire to bring up a child, with all the self-sacrifice that involves.

All my opinions only! It's different for everyone.

I think people have repeatedly explained this - neither partner in a gay male relationship can carry and birth the baby, so it is likely that a surrogate was involved, and many people are against surrogacy either for same-sex or different-sex couples.

ETA - a poster has just mentioned a foster-to-adopt relationship and I believe posters against surrogacy would not be against this.

How would you have liked to be removed from your biological mum just after you were born??
How would you feel if you never had your biological mother in your life??
Also, you’d not know half your genetic makeup - although this applies to any children raised by non parents.

Two women, one of whom gave birth to the child: fine.
Two women, baby from surrogacy: not fine.
Two men: not fine, unless this is a father finding a new husband post divorce, with the mum still in their lives, or death of spouse.