5 yr old son tried to kill dh yesterday

[StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh]

We were walking along a very busy road and ds asked dh for chocolate. Dh said no so ds then tried to push him onto the road. We both then explained to him how dangerous it was and how that would hurt daddy etc. His response was I don't care. He then pushed dh with all his might onto the road again. He then said hahaha I'm going to kill you.
This is our daily life what happened yesterday happens alot.

He punches his older siblings, breaks stuff. He screams at the top of his voice all the time.

I got myself a new plant today and was showing dh and kids it the minute I put it down He ripped it apart. He watched me cry and said hahaha it's dead now.

I've asked social work for help 3 times now nothing happens
His school are having the same problems. Even with a one to one full time. it's still a struggle for them He can't even eat lunch with the other children because of his violence.

The doctor put me one more medication for low mood and anxiety today. So three lots of medication I'm on now.

I'm scared for us but I'm really scared what ds will grow up to me.

He has been diagnosed with autism and awaiting a adhd assessment ( 3 yr wait)

Yes.

Also 'how to talk so kids will listen', 'playful parenting', and 'aha parenting' website.

OP, this sounds very difficult for you and your DH, and also of course for your DS.

He's so tiny. There will be ways through. Of course punishment won't work, it never does in the long run. 'Rough-housing' can help. Looking at lifestyle, too, diet, exercise, outdoor time, and also his environment - 'Simplicity parenting' may help here - basically reduce stimulus, introduce routine and predictability.

At root it sounds like he is trying very hard to express difficult emotions and struggling. Because he's so young, and he doesn't know how. He needs help to process his emotions, space to express them, rules and boundaries to know he is safe. Active listening is essential for this, too. And key to this is your own self care and self regulation.

It's not easy but it is doable. You sound very loving parents, you are able to do this.

Wishing you all the best.

I had a child in my class 25 years ago just like this. His poor Mum was at the end of her tether. The other children in the class did not interact with this little one at all, he was so nasty to anyone that he came across, totally emotionless and would cause as much physical harm to others as possible. No he wasn't Autistic and no he didn't have ADHD.

I think this is too extreme to be bad behaviour. I don't think the autism is causing him to act like this but it's probably a factor.
It's very hard to get a diagnosis for autism and it's generally a long wait so it's not just a quick fix .
I have no idea what is causing the child to act this way but I wonder if counselling or family therapy would help.
SS can give respite but you have to push for it (DH won't allow it for our son because he doesn't want SS involved) but I don't think there's a lot else they will do.
Really sorry OP but I think you're going to have to pay privately to get your son help. He's doing this at 5. What will he be like at 8 if you wait?

And you know this because ... ? Let me guess, you have no idea whatsoever what may have been the reason for his problems. You just enjoy judging.

Conduct disorder is very much a CAMHS pathway. Except at age 5 it's too young for such a dx. Child Psychotherapy is probably what they might consider if there are also other circumstances.
PDA wasn't recognised as a 'thing' when I was in CANHS as recently as 2 years ago. Have things changed or are mire parents self diagnosing their children .

I'm not sure what to say op..We have the same issue but maybe no as extreem in that its only when shes angry but ive been thrown infront of cars and had my stuff trashed. when she was 4 she put a marbell in my coffee to choke me. But she can also be the most loving wonderfull little girl ever. Have u tried NVR not all authrorities offer it but worth looking into.

I'd be quite afraid going near CAMHS with this one. I am conscious to acknowledge people are trying their best working in a system that isn't adequately resourced. I refer to the institution not the individual people working in it just to caveat. ( I'm quite critical of CAMHS).

During our assessment ( private), the assessor diagnosed Autism and referenced PDA features. As long as the Autism diagnosis was confirmed I wasn't too fussed about the PDA acknowledgement. Because I knew. But I've had a great deal of time to read and learn and understand it. No parent will happily accept that PDA label without believing it. Because it's quite a nightmare parenting wise.

It's really helpful to parents to learn about it because it can present somewhat differently to typical Autism ( whatever that is, I don't have appropriate language).

That's really interesting ref the conduct disorder. We don't really hear it being discussed in the UK.
I fear if mum mentioned this to CAMHS, they'll potentially gaslight her. As you've explained, too young to focus on so it's going to be a sit and wait.

( Ref the poster who reported - id hazard a guess Autism is something they're familiar with personally or loved ones and therefore they suspected it was another autism bashing post. I don't think they meant to be a troll. The media is doing quite a number atm)

How the flying flip would you know what he did or did not have?
What a judgy post.

@ERthree you don't know that to be fair.

Schools and teachers notoriously do not understand Neurodivergent behaviour. And I understand why because teachers have alot to deal with and no reasonable training on it.

All the stereotypes I believed in were challenged when I had my own child. Now diagnosed with multiple ND conditions; 3 in fact. Never once picked up by school until the edge of secondary school.

For me of course, it explained everything. Because the behaviour was completely non typical and normal parenting never worked. Saying shocking things I'm familiar with. Which is why I'm hesitant now saying conduct disorder because we just don't have enough here and he's only 5.

Sorry if it’s been covered in the thread I haven’t read all the replies but OP have you looked into right to choose for the autism and ADHD referral? It’s covered really well on the ADHD uk website and it’s what I used to cut my wait down from 4 years to 4 months.

@Chocolatecustardcreamsrule autism already confirmed. The wait is for ADHD assessment.

Yeah, I don't think its psychopathy in your DSs case OP

I had (He is grown now and though loses his temper he is not as He was as a youngster) a DS who was aggressive, angry, but on the other hand was quiet, insular and Yes, had and has Empathy. That is tottally lacking in any Psychopath.
I feel for You all, I really do.

As an autistic person, thank you so much for this. It's wonderfully validating and reassuring seeing people express opinions like this. My assessment, too, was very thorough.

How is this post in anyway helpful?

It’s absolutely 100% not unusual for PDA, which is a subset of autism. (Many LA’s - including ours - don’t recognize PDA as a separate diagnosis from ASC).

I’m as pro-ND positivity as it’s possible to be, and your assumption that autism is only ever x is both wrong and unhelpful to the OP. I have a PDA son with a primary diagnosis of autism and he is more than capable of everything the OP has described. He’s also bright, clever, quirky, loving and hilarious.

@StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh , this is very hard but sounds very much like my son when he was younger who does have PDA, he also had empathy for others and could be very affectionate and kind but could also show impulsive explosive anger if he was anxious or couldn’t cope with demands and be violent to us and his older sibling. I found the explosive child book very good and also read a lot around the strategies of PDA parenting and it really is very different to parenting a neurotypical child. When I asked him about the anger when he was older he describes being completely overwhelmed and unable to control it. @YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators describes very well life with PDA so even if it turns out your son does not have this reading about the language to use with a PDA child to minimise his perceived demands may help. We had previously tried typical parenting strategies that worked with our older child that just made things much worse.

OP you are probably overwhelmed with sources of advice, but one I would recommend is Autism Early Support. https://autismearlysupport.org.uk/

Although not local to you, they have excellent online resources for children and parents and their paid portal is low cost.

I hope you find a way forward.

So sorry. Please look at how to protect your older kids and discuss the situation with them - they need to know any attacks and meltdowns are not because of them, etc. it is very traumatic growing up with a sibling on the spectrum. I still remember the shame and fear decades later.

I read the article in @parietal's post out of interest, and I'd strongly recommend it to OP. Actually I'd recommend it to anyone, before we give our assessment of OP's situation.

It's from Psychology Today, and is the only advice I've read in this thread (apologies if I've missed anything) that really addresses the issue of kids with 'Callous-Unemotional Traits' - behaviours which sound remarkably similar to the ones OP describes in her son.

It also sets out what therapies and treatments are available, as well as what doesn't work (punishment), in this emerging field.

In our area there are parenting courses for parents of children with additional needs, to learn how to manage them and get a better understanding.

I agree about a private Psychiatrist. I am also wondering about doing some reading and research into adopted children who display similar behaviours , in those instances they are normally attachment/ trauma based, but there are some very successful parenting techniques that may be helpful. I would imagine too that on forums you would find adoptive parents who have similar experiences and could provide support and knowledge. I also think that the approach used is also a very good one for children with autism . (I am a social worker that has worked in post adoption support and my daughter has autism and adhd and has had very challenging and at times violent behaviour - now receding at 12 ),

You may want to look at writers Margo Sutherland, Dan Hughes and his PACE intervention (stands for Playfulness, Acceptance, Curiosity, Empathy ) - he has a lot of You Tube videos if you would rather watch than read. And read about Therapeutic parenting.

I do really feel for you, it sounds exhausting. I would also continue to push SS and ask for respite. Ask what the parameters of the Children’s disability team is. I am close to two LA’s- one of them work with children with autism and the other one doesn’t. It is a lottery. But it can be easier to obtain respite through the disability team.

Finally, have you applied for DLA - you may then be eligible for carers allowance and so on, and this could help fund private help.

Good luck, keep posting for advice and maybe pop over to the adoption forum too. I would hope that they would help the mum of a non adoptive child.

Unfortunately you will not get respite, as this just isn't available anywhere in the UK.
For the ADHD assessment you can be seen quicker if you request Right to Choose through your GP (there is a FB group that will help you with this) and if this behaviour is related to ADHD - which can include seeking out turmoil and upset because it gives children a dopamine boost - this can be helped with medication. So it's really worth speeding up that process by talking to your GP.

We have a DS who has ADHD and is aggressive at times though he is getting better. In contrast to what others are saying, concentrating on "how do you feel" is completely pointless at the time he is feeling it - because he thrives on negative attention/making a fuss/blowing things up this is just more and more talk around the times he feels explosive anyway and it just makes him worse.

Positive reinforcement for good behaviour and ignoring bad behaviour are extremely effective. We often hear DS going around doing something he's not supposed to do, saying "I'm going to look for that jar of nutella/I'm going to go and jump on DD/I've got a pair of scissors" and we say to each other quietly "looks like DS wants some attention for something naughty" and we don't respond, and he stops.

I have read about some really good research into the callous/unemotional group of children and the behavioural interventions they mention work very well. However it's not flavour of the month at all in special education in this country so you will either get mainstream teachers suggesting a weekly sticker chart (which is completely ineffective for children with ADHD as they can't remember what they did yesterday or link what they do today to the end of the week) or specialist personnel suggesting "talk about your feelings" which is either totally impossible for the child at this stage (so they get frustrated) or else it feeds into the cycle of getting more and more dysregulated and getting attention and talk for being dysregulated.

Well it is but its very hard to get and usually reserved for children with the most complex needs and like most things is very dependent on whats avsilable in the LA .

Where are these people going for a ''diagnosis of PDA? It's not recognised in the ICD-10 or the DSM V??

Regular consequences won’t work here, what asd/adhd children can look for is cortisol, if they can’t get dopamine. In this instance dopamine he would have got from the ice cream got substituted by cortisol by acting on the anger and getting a negative reaction from you that way.

Best way to right the ship here is to find his obsessions and get into his world and use those to reach him and reinforce positive qualities.