5 yr old son tried to kill dh yesterday

[StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh]

We were walking along a very busy road and ds asked dh for chocolate. Dh said no so ds then tried to push him onto the road. We both then explained to him how dangerous it was and how that would hurt daddy etc. His response was I don't care. He then pushed dh with all his might onto the road again. He then said hahaha I'm going to kill you.
This is our daily life what happened yesterday happens alot.

He punches his older siblings, breaks stuff. He screams at the top of his voice all the time.

I got myself a new plant today and was showing dh and kids it the minute I put it down He ripped it apart. He watched me cry and said hahaha it's dead now.

I've asked social work for help 3 times now nothing happens
His school are having the same problems. Even with a one to one full time. it's still a struggle for them He can't even eat lunch with the other children because of his violence.

The doctor put me one more medication for low mood and anxiety today. So three lots of medication I'm on now.

I'm scared for us but I'm really scared what ds will grow up to me.

He has been diagnosed with autism and awaiting a adhd assessment ( 3 yr wait)

Because it’s impossible to understand - the profile is now so varied, with so many different profile and presentations, really it would be more helpful to say anything outside of a narrow stream of ‘normal’ behaviours is autism.

At some point there will have to be some critical thinking around autism, as it is so nebulous and has so many holes/contradictions that it can mean virtually anything from one person to another.

OP, I really feel for you, this sounds incredibly hard. Have you tried a play therapist? They could help to pinpoint the source of the rage, before immediately shooting off for an ND assessment.

@Wildflowers99 no I don't agree. We've debated on a few threads and I recall your points regarding the cost to the public purse and how this is unsustainable with the ND situation ( high numbers seeking assessment and validation and diagnosis).

I haven't myself met any Autistic people having an amazing time navigating all this, instead I see people really efficient at masking and instead appearing ok and this feeding into false narratives perpetuated on here.

Being diagnosed and Autistic does in no way entitle one to benefits or their child. Quite the contrary- I'm out of pocket by thousands. Mum's are unable to work to their full potential because of school systems unfit for purpose and insidious gaslighting.

Acknowledging and assessing these people imo is a really good thing. It will not result in a swathe of extra benefit claimants. My sense is this is where the concern lies. Otherwise, why would it be a problem if people are diagnosed?

With the Autistic ' high functioning ' people I know - I see the struggles.

Thanks for sharing this. My DD was also put on Risperodone and Sertraline at 12 because of her violent behaviour and uncontrollable anger.
Frankly I think it saved her life… and my health/sanity.

I have a sociopath young adult in the family . I completely see where you are coming from with the stigma. Thankfully his parents realised he was different very early on and looked for private help . He leads a pretty “ m normal “ life for now , but as he says himself he is different. He was never like the ops child openly violent but instead always knew how to hide it or make it look like he was caring and not blamed and extremely intelligent doing so even as young as 5 , but adults around him that knew him realised early on . I don’t think it is ever “ cured “ he lacks empathy and doesn’t care with much around him but himself but he knows if he does wrong it has repercussions so accepts he needs to follow norms .
Not all psychopaths will be criminals and murderers , probably a lot amongst us .

@Crazyworldmum it's interesting reading these stories. I'm part of a group online anonymously where conduct disorder is a problem. It's mainly American. I don't see an awareness in this country. I agree there will be loads of people like this under the radar.

I have a sociopathic sibling. And yes, I've determine that diagnosis! They tick every single box and I've been subject to it all my life. Relatively hidden and on the surface this person passes, as long as this sibling doesn't get into personal relationships,all just about mumbles along. I'm no contact after years of therapy and this realisation. They are definitely Neurotypical too. So yes,these people are hidden in plain sight.

I fear that mums are being gaslit and ignored and their cries minimised atm. If you look at posts on MN, things in the media and Government announcements of late. I would feel really cautious of even mentioning this to anyone. Not only is there risk of stigma to that child,there's the risk mum's will be labelled as neurotic or focus on trauma caused by environment factors with no considerations to genetic condition that may be co morbid or increase risk. And plenty will do this in this climate I believe.

I'd only feel confident expressing concerns if it was blindingly clear to me as a mother with little doubt. I'd pursue advice privately and would want it kept away from the NHS until I had clarity also.

Well, not in the very large NHS CAMHS and ND service I worked in. Where in the DSM V and the ICD10 does it say that?

I’m not disputing it is not in the ICD10 but if you look at the position in different areas of the NHS if parents are given the diagnosis it is as part of an ASD diagnosis , this is one example and other areas adopt a similar position. It is also recognised by the national autistic society as a subtype ofASD
www.esht.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Demand-Avoidance-Vs-Pathological-Demand-Avoidance-PDA.pdf

God this bloody argument again, another poster on another thread point blank refused to believe me when I mentioned I work with several children who have this diagnosis, from the NHS, many years ago.

Do you mean the PDA part? That the NHS do acknowledge it? I appreciate the language used would probably be ' PDA features'.

I had no choice but to go private so have not had NHS dealings. We had ' PDA features ' noted. I know myself based on my own research this is the case. It's helpful to know the NHS acknowledgement.

It’s filtering through to teachers too now! A family I supported with this have been told outright that it doesn’t exist and they won’t be able to use the strategies in school!

Tbh, I don't even use the expression PDA in discussions with school. Because I know their brains will explode and they're at capacity. It's easier I notice to just refer to child being Autistic and having an overwhelming need for control and choices. They kind of get that.

Schools imo are kind of understanding ADHD but still have such a way to go with Autism awareness.

Not an argument. In fact PDA is not in either of the manuals used by Consultants to diagnose.

Conduct disorder is, as is, Oppositional defiant disorder etc. The term 'Pathological ' is problematic IMO. It suggests the person is the problem.
As I've said upthread, trauma responses might also explain very problematic behaviour

Don't wait for CAHMS.

Do whatever it takes to get your child to a psychiatrist.

Find one, book an appointment, find the money somewhere.

And yet in our network meetings with CAMHS and FCAMHS its part of discussion about looking a strategies, techniques etc.

I hear what you mean regarding the term and the word pathological. However, for myself and the other parents and adults I engage with online mostly, there is a collective understanding of this.

We have identical experiences and understanding and interpretation. It's significant enough to validate our knowing that this really is a ' thing'.

The number of health issues I personally have wherein professionals and consultants just don't understand it. These are defined physiological autoimmune conditions with data and information out there.

The collective experience and knowledge and lived reality shared and discussed amongst hundreds and perhaps thousands online really helped solidify my understanding of PDA. I need no consultant to even tell me a thing. So because it isn't in the DSM, that doesn't matter to most of us guys living it.

PDA children do experience trauma; my son's early years in school were intensely traumatic. But the PDA came first, and he was at the mercy of adults who couldn't or wouldn't understand his needs.

Having used these manuals throughout my own working life you are also having to use the closest fit at times as diagnoses develop and evolve before ICD etc codes are updated. The term extreme demand avoidance is now used by some to avoid the use of the word pathological. Many paediatricians recognise the very particular pattern of behaviours that present in PDA and it is very different to ODD

If the op is still reading this book really helped turned things around for us, although my daughter doesn't have a PDA profile, and the book is written with that in mind, she becomes totally demand avoidant when dysregulated. I increase demands as she is doing well and as soon as I see signs of dysregulation I drop all demands as per the instructions in the book. It works a treat!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Low-Demand-Parenting-Dropping-Restoring-Connection/dp/183997768X

I understand that the most recent versions of the manuals only feature “ASC” as a diagnosis, so you can no longer be deemed “classic”, “Asperger’s” etc if autistic. DS was described as “autistic with a demand avoidant profile” and is textbook PDA.

My blood ran cold reading your list of solutions for this 5 year old little boy who is already having a very hard time. None of your abusive methods will work for an autistic child.

Having sat in many meetings with CP, Education Dept and his consultant i know he didn't have Aut/ADHD. Post is not judgy at all, it is matter of fact. The child had serious issues and the other children could sense that and gave him a very very wide berth.
The child tried to smother his baby sister, he would hurt her when ever he got the chance. He hurt the family pet. He hurt anyone he could and destroyed whatever he thought someone else liked or was proud of. He was cold and calculating. Not nice things to say about the child but that is exactly how he was. No point in pretending any different.

There do sound to be similarities to PDA in the behaviours discussed along with him actually having high empathy as you describe. My youngest has a diagnosis of autistic WITH a pathological demand avoidant profile. Verified by NHS. We are in Norfolk and it is recognised and diagnosed as such. They like many health authorities have released a position statement on it. With my sons diagnosis I got a letter explaining that whilst not in DSM he fits criteria as per... then a list of references etc. I have other children who are asd/adhd and pda profile is very different and requires very different handling.

I would be looking at low demand parenting, language etc and yes you do have to ignore a lot of behaviours and try to pre empty. This can be hard with pda as they can go from zero to 100 and escalate very quickly.

Have you also noticed any sensory issues? Could be worth getting an OT assessment. My little boy has a very complex sensory profile and this in itself adds hugely to demand and impacts his capacity levels. Understanding his sensory issues helps me to mitigate and alleviate this. I work in a complex needs school so was doing a lot of things already but the assessment did help in terms of accomodatiins in his ehcp.

Re pathological there is debate about his word but ime it is fitting in that for the child it is pathological avoidance of demand to a degree they can't do things they want to do, it impacts daily living and functioning ue my boy can be so overwhelmed by demand he can't go to the toilet or eat. That's what makes it pathological rather than just an avoidance of demand. It can be debilitating to those impacted.

Agree. I feel like EVERYTHING is funnelled into ASD/ADHD now, it seems unthinkable that any child should be diagnosed with anything else, and there’s a lot of bending to make the symptoms fit into either ASD or ADHD.

I don’t think he sounds like a psychopath. Psychopaths are devoid of empathy but they’re not the same as sadists - they don’t get pleasure from the suffering of others, they’re just indifferent to it. He sounds very disturbed and I hope somebody out there can help. It must be very tough for you OP.

Is anyone truly NT? I don’t know a single person who would describe themselves as such, definitely in a minority.

Oh FFS