5 yr old son tried to kill dh yesterday

[StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh]

We were walking along a very busy road and ds asked dh for chocolate. Dh said no so ds then tried to push him onto the road. We both then explained to him how dangerous it was and how that would hurt daddy etc. His response was I don't care. He then pushed dh with all his might onto the road again. He then said hahaha I'm going to kill you.
This is our daily life what happened yesterday happens alot.

He punches his older siblings, breaks stuff. He screams at the top of his voice all the time.

I got myself a new plant today and was showing dh and kids it the minute I put it down He ripped it apart. He watched me cry and said hahaha it's dead now.

I've asked social work for help 3 times now nothing happens
His school are having the same problems. Even with a one to one full time. it's still a struggle for them He can't even eat lunch with the other children because of his violence.

The doctor put me one more medication for low mood and anxiety today. So three lots of medication I'm on now.

I'm scared for us but I'm really scared what ds will grow up to me.

He has been diagnosed with autism and awaiting a adhd assessment ( 3 yr wait)

Please look at peaceandparenting on Instagram. I don't have any advice, but he and you are really obviously struggling. She has lots of suggestions about connection, and seems to have turned around at lot of parent/child relationships. Definitely worth thinking about and I really hope things get better for you all. X
https://www.instagram.com/peaceandparenting?igsh=ZnQzYzJzemJ0N3V2

Not quite the same as OP, but I've seen a 5 yo child destroying things that other children like and laughing, trashing the place ,and talking of killing peers and putting them in a washing machine and describing how there will be blood etc. Trashes their house and parents live in fear. Regularly talking about killing peers etc. So it is possible that the OP is genuine.

I'm a little confused as to why PP think this is worthy of reporting.

Of course not all autistic children are violent, but some are.

I worked with a little boy from when he was 3. He was so violent that he terrified myself, his mother and his sister, even though he was so little.

He would do things like go and sit beside his older sister holding a pencil sneakily beside him and then he would just raise his arm and stab her with it in the leg as hard as he could. No hesitation, just pure rage.

He would also say extremely disturbing things like when he got to around four years old. He made the hair on the back of my neck stand up and I wouldn't be surprised if I saw him in the news having committed a horrendous crime as an adult.

Personality disorders and autism are not mutually exclusive. OP may be goading... But I have seen behaviours that she is describing, so on the off chance she is genuine, she deserves our support.

Thing is, @Cakeandcoffee93, some children's brains are incapable of processing direct requests and orders, some are unable to ignore or put up with uncomfortable sensations, some have a limited emotional range with anger being the only fully realised one.

None of these issues are choices. They're sometimes related to the child's life experience, but they can also be the result of mental 'wiring' - just how they are, in other words. In those cases, the issue is for life.

Punishing someone, especially a child, for being just how they are will not get results. It'll make them even angrier, with a deep sense of unfairness and persecution.

Obviously, if a five-year-old is able to choose to modify his behaviour because bad behaviour gets unpleasant results, then he would do so. It's probably a bit silly to suppose none of the adults in his family or school have tried it! That doesn't work, so he's going to need kindness and help. The form these should take will depend on what 'wiring' issues he has, which can be identified by a professional from his patterns of bad behaviour.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56881724.amp

From various online groups I'm part of, there are many ND kids with other co morbid conditions like conduct disorder. The likelihood I understand is higher for various reasons. ( Conduct disorder being the traits of a personality disorder in U18s).

There are also plenty of NT adults out there who are personality disordered and hiding under the radar!

@GoldBeautifulHeart Since when was trying to kill your own dad considered demand avoidance?

This sounds really tough. That seems a quick diagnosis for autism. I will be flamed but could he be going through a bad spell and is generally acting out and badly behaved?

And loads of people who don’t have autism are violent and hurt and kill. is violence linked to being neurotypical?

There will be a number of factors here, this is a human being. Irresponsible to say "nothing to do with autism" when it must be a part of it.
Children do well if they can.
I have a DS with PDA who showed challenging behaviour, said he would kill me.
He's still PDA but I've learned about this kind of ASD and how to help him.
He's now fab to be around although he still struggles to regulate and sometimes needs help.
OP I hugely feel for you. Do think about PDA.
It'll be worth exploring some of the strategies with him.
https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
https://www.atpeaceparents.com/
https://reframingautism.org.au/pathological-demand-avoidance-pda-and-autism-guide-for-allies/

Even if he said he was trying to kill your other half, I find it hard to fathom that a child of that age would understand what they are saying. That is the kind of language that they have picked up elsewhere, for example, a joking comment such as “I’ll kill you if you do that again” or “I’d murder a burger right now”. It really is amazing what they can pick up on.

What an aggressive nasty unnecessary response to a person reaching out for advice, the OP never said that his behaviour was down to the fact the child has autism

I'm going to say that from a personal and professional point of view this doesn't really sound like PDA. PDA is anxiety driven which means that in the moment the demand causes a fight/flight/freeze/fawn response. However most children with a PDA profile will also have some kind of sense of shame after the event (which can be shown as deflection not necessarily contrition) and also distress at their own sense of being out of control.
OP, your son sounds more detached than this? Do you think?
Does this type of behaviour only occur when he wants something, or does it also prevent him from doing things he wants to do? I.e. a child with a PDA profile of autism will feel a sense of internal demand too, so will react with what looks like a self-destructive response even towards things they love doing - because the fact they want to do it becomes a demand in and of itself.
He's very young, but have you been able to identify triggers? Is there a sensory link to his behaviour? Have school been able to identify what it is that triggers him to become violent in the lunch hall? Is it the smell, sight, or sound of others eating? Or is it more that he has been sitting all morning and more sitting but in a slightly less supervised/structured way is just too much for him? Does he get movement breaks? Has he seen an OT?

You could try some PDA strategies and see if they make any difference. Have a look at Declarative Language and also co-regulation strategies.

It's really hard and exhausting, and it takes effort, but my child who has a PDA profile responds to declarative language and Emotion Coaching techniques, as well as sensory integration. Raised voices never work with PDA children nor do direct demands.

It's worth trying PDA strategies, but I think there may be something else going on here. Has there been any traumatic incidents he has witnessed? Or has anyone ever spoken to you about PANS/PANDAS? This could be worth investigating too.

This. When he behaves very badly what is the consequence? Is there a punishment or nothing happens?

Surely at 5 he isn't physically capable of pushing an adult male onto oncoming traffic? how does he even understand the concept of killing someone at age 5?

PDA is very specific and is not just avoiding demands.
There's lots of quality peer reviewed research.

As a Mum to someone with PDA it is POSSIBLE that this child is very emotionally dysregulated and unable to recover.

It's not OP's fault but the straight "no" to the chocolate and then the instructions about the road as well as it being explained he's risking hurting his Dad will distress him intensely. Life or death intensity.

Anyway I won't try and explain PDA here. If it might me that OP, please read and learn. It will help.

Punishment and consequences do not work with most Autistic people.

While I concur with much of what VivienneDelacroix posted, often young children with PDA cannot identify or express the shame/remorse, doesn't mean it's not there.

They need first to be supported to regulate and then can be coached in emotional, sensory, interoceptive needs etc

Doesn’t resemble any of the PDA kids that I’ve come across….

And ....?

None of here can diagnose him, we're just offering some viewpoints, experiences, information about possibilities to explore....

For what it's worth, I don't believe he Is autistic. I almost didn't include it in the op. The fact he actually was diagnosed shocked both me and his dad.

If this child has psychopathic traits, and, worryingly, it sounds as if it could be a distinct possibility, it is very difficult to find a punishment that works as they will then look for ways to exact revenge. As for appealing to their empathy - this is almost impossible because lack of empathy is the biggest problem. Urgent psychological help is vital. If there is any chance of scraping the money together, a private consultation will be much quicker.

Today with the plant he didn't go to the park with his dad as punishment.

Punishment doesn't work with him or anything. He really can't seem to understand it. We also have safety awareness issues with him. Even when he has hurt himself ( once quite badly) he will still climb high etc

We currently are looking into private support/assessment for him but it's expensive especially when only dh can work ( higher earning potential) due to no childcare providers accepting him for wraparound care and school hoilday care.