5 yr old son tried to kill dh yesterday

[StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh]

We were walking along a very busy road and ds asked dh for chocolate. Dh said no so ds then tried to push him onto the road. We both then explained to him how dangerous it was and how that would hurt daddy etc. His response was I don't care. He then pushed dh with all his might onto the road again. He then said hahaha I'm going to kill you.
This is our daily life what happened yesterday happens alot.

He punches his older siblings, breaks stuff. He screams at the top of his voice all the time.

I got myself a new plant today and was showing dh and kids it the minute I put it down He ripped it apart. He watched me cry and said hahaha it's dead now.

I've asked social work for help 3 times now nothing happens
His school are having the same problems. Even with a one to one full time. it's still a struggle for them He can't even eat lunch with the other children because of his violence.

The doctor put me one more medication for low mood and anxiety today. So three lots of medication I'm on now.

I'm scared for us but I'm really scared what ds will grow up to me.

He has been diagnosed with autism and awaiting a adhd assessment ( 3 yr wait)

It doesn't sound like every autistic child but sounds incredibly like my autistic son who also has ADHD. Under the age of about 10 he was incredibly violent to his siblings and friends out of no where. We were very lucky that at school he wasn't because he was terrified of authority (not ours).

OP I'm going to give you a bit of our story to see if it's helpful anyway.

DS started being violent when he was about 16 months old. He would randomly hurt other children, his then baby brother and us. It didn't seem to come out of a place of anger more of interest to see the result.

It took me up a few years to realize the only thing that worked with him was to reduce the reaction of any such behavior and was very much after attention of any sorts.

The mantra then became "praise the good, ignore the bad". Ie if he did anything at all good we would go on about to everyone but naughty try and downplay it.

The more I stuck to this the better he became. In terms of consequences I would very clearly and calmly lay out a consequence if he was violent prior to it happening. Then if he was violent, be very matter of fact about the fact he would have the consequence and stick to it. Obviously didn't always happen like this and sometimes I would react badly. This would trigger him into much worse behavior for a while.

Try and work with school to do the same.

Screens were absolute nightmare with him (be TV/iPad/phone) and quite we would banned these for a long time as it made life better

He also needed a huge amount of exercise soneverybday after school rain or shine we would go to the park, climb trees, play ball games etc. then got him into every sport going tennis, athletics, swimming. Football and rugby world a bit tricky because of their contact but got better he got older.

He also hyper focuses on stuff so we always go with it when he does.

He is now 20. He lives at home but holds down a decent job, after a terrible incident with his sister where he kicked her in his early teens and scared the hell out of everyone he has never been violence since. He almost never loses his temper. He has friends. Is quirky as fuck but so much calmer. And we enjoy his company.

It has been very hard but you have to remember it's not your fault and not his fault. It will get better 💐

It takes very different parenting skills to successfully parent an autistic/PDA child to be a regulated adult. It is far more difficult, in fact it take much more skill. Parenting an NT child is an absolute walk in the park by comparison. I've got some of each. It doesn't compare.

Please don't have children.

Yeah, labels do help when they describe known constellations of behavioural problems. You can't help someone unless you've got an idea what's going on with them, and it's stupid to assume they feel like like most other people do - that's why disorders are called disorders!

A 'disordered' child is even less equipped to explain how they're thinking and feeling than an NT child or an adult with ND, and that's not very well in most cases either.

Exactly!! It's like saying, heal your broken leg by walking on it a lot. Or cure your diabetes with a Mars bar.

This might be useful. I have worked with a child with pda and they had very challenging behaviour. However, there are some strategies that can help.
I hope you and your child get the support you need.

This is so tough to read - I would fear for the safety of the siblings. Hope you get help OP.

Agree - and ditto. They're poles apart and require totally different skills.

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/new-practice-guidance-published/

Helpful to read and share with school or other settings

You dont believe he is autistic, but he was diagnosed.

Why do you think he is not?

I’m not sure if it will help but it might be worth reading ‘The Explosive Child’ by Ross Greene.

💐

He sounds deeply unhappy. One of my kids went a bit like this over lockdown because he just didn't care any more and could see any way for his life to get better.
Could you or your husband spend some really good quality time one to one with him? By doing this, you can build a more secure relationship so he knows that you will love him and have his back whatever happens. Once you can do nice things together that he enjoys, he will care more about getting stuff right.
Does he maybe feel like he is being told off all the time? There is a good book called the explosive child by Ross Greene which might be worth a read. It suggests backing off with enforcing rules when it gets like this, lowering expectations and only making the safety rules the important ones, ignore everything else.
Behaviour is communication.

Snap

Reading and hoping that OP can get help, as I have a friend whose seven year old regularly threatens to kill her and who has to sleep with her bedroom door locked. We all think PDA (cannot be told the word 'no' without complete meltdowns) but because he behaves in school it is all being denied by everyone and she is covered in bruises, everything she owns is broken and she is desperate.

Caudwell children's charity are really good
There maybe some groups around for children with asd in your area.

When he has these episodes of violence, afterwards, try and think about the lead up to it. I start by identifying any vulnerabilities, so did he have a bad night's sleep, is he hungry, was he overwhelmed. Then replay the lead up to these episodes and really put yourself in his shoes, think about what he could see, smell, feel.

How is his communication? I don't just mean speech, but his expressive and receptive language.

If he's showing signs of PDA i give closed choice options. So if for example, i know my son will resist going up to bed, instead of saying it's bed time let's go upstairs. I'd say "what toy would you like to take with you to bed?" Or "what pyjamas would you like to wear" because it takes the deman away and gives them some choice, they are doing what you need them to do, but they are still having a part of control over their self.

My son is 8, and I have similar issues, because he can't regulate himself well, and it's really tricky. And it's normal to be worried about the future, when they get stronger etc.

When my son is having a meltdown he is just so overwhelmed and out of control that trying to talk to him rationally at that point often doesn't work, so I talk to him once he's calm.

It's so tricky because you feel like their a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. I now think more that if it goes off, it goes off. And I've learnt by reading his body language when hes likely to go off, and try to reduce it. The reality is that he will explode, so trying to manage the aftermath is much easier when you have a protocol. When you have a mental list and feel more prepared.

You're not alone, it is hard, really hard. I'm a single parent and it's tough. So I'm sending you strength and solidarity ❤️

I have experience of one child who said similar things and was violent at times at school from Reception class. He is now at a SEMH school. He was diagnosed with ASD/ADHD but also had quite poor background with similar parents so they had difficulty with basic parenting. He had to be separated from the other chn for their safety and he regularly punched and kicked his 1:1. He could also be very calm and loved books but was all on his terms.

This is by far the least helpful post on this thread. You show no empathy, kindness or understanding whatsoever. In fact you sound as if you are more childish than the five year old and bullying to boot. I remember the early days with my autistic son and the overwhelming hopelessness and helplessness at first. If you talk to a group of parents with autistic children who are more obviously affected, this is a common theme. I think we were all suffering from PTSD, too.
@StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh, l have just remembered one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given when my son was small - the phrase it's rule. Autistic people are very rule bound and this phrase takes a situation out of the personal element and into a universal realm. One example may be that you want your child to put his coat on and he doesn't want to. By telling him that when it is cold outside the rule is that we wear a coat, it somehow makes more sense than the more draconian put on your coat. Always remember to put his name first when you are talking to him because autistic people don't always know that they are being spoken to otherwise, so, for example, "Sam, it's time for dinner." Always give plenty of warnings in advance if you are wanting him to do something: "Sam, it will be bedtime in ten minutes," while holding up ten fingers. Repeat this at the five minute and one minute stage with the matching number of fingers. You could also incorporate a ten second countdown and, if he joins in, all the better. If he is doing something irritating such as asking the same pointless questions over and over again, the words last time are very effective because if (when) he continues with the behaviour, you can say: "Sam, I said last time so l will not answer any more of these questions now." I hope this helps.

So many people to reply too.
We stay in Edinburgh so don't have right to choose. There currently is a very small group of parents in Edinburgh who are concerned about the way NHS lothain are allowing Asd assessments and how quickly children are being diagnosed with asd. We have another son who was diagnosed the old way when he was three and we didn't have any concerns about it. Its a tricky one for sure.
We have already done numerous courses and everyone is involved. including ed psych and ot etc. This started long before school.
He gets plenty one to one time with both of us. He knows he is loved. We tell him all the time we love him even more so when our day has been stressful

I'm definitely going to get the book quite a few of you have recommend.
The thread title is a bit much but I wrote the post last night after dh broke in tears about what happened

Totally agree with the rule bound thing.

Just thinking about the way things are phrased can help with PDA. In your post “it’s time for dinner” and “it will be bedtime in 10 minutes” would’ve caused a huge reaction for my DD! (I understand not everyone with autism/pda will respond like that)

we went with things like “the dinner is ready, it’s on the table” or “I’m about to put dinner on the table because it’s nearly ready” show the clock, “bedtime is 7pm and that’s 10 minutes away” “your shoes are by the door, we are going to go out in 10minutes” (visual of the clock again) “in winter it’s the rule that we wear coats to stop us getting cold, do you think you might be cold if you don’t wear your coat?”

al the above seemed to lessen the anxiety (her anxiety was not internalised, it was very much explosive!) and probably felt less like demands to her.

That is not a good analogy @Smallmercies
Diabetes and fractures are based on a scientific assessment.
I've personal experience of some assessments and also professional experience. Assessments for ASD and ADHD are very subjective. They are mostly questions/answers on forms, completed by parents. Sometimes some observation from the psych at the time too. There is obviously selection-bias from the start. For the 'lay person' who doesn't know what assessments involve, it's very easy to think they are always accurate- they aren't.

You are so wrong, there is no point in arguing with you. It is the perfect analogy for using traditional punishment/reward strategies on PDA children.

It is very very common for kids who have ADHD (or some combination of autism&adhd) to struggle to identify and regulate their emotions.

A diagnosis will help with this if you can get it, there are a number of companies online offering them for around £600. As I'm sure you know, an existing Autism diagnosis massively increases the chances of him also having ADHD.

In your example DS was feeling disappointed/sad about the chocolate but has shown anger towards DH rather than sadness and been unable to calm enough to manage his behaviour when he is feeling the emotion. If you can afford to do play therapy that will be able to help with this, and in turn reduce these behaviours.

If you can't afford play therapy then you can help by commenting on his emotions and how they feel in his body. EG if he is worried about going to school "You look like you're feeling anxious. Can you feel the anxiety in your tummy? How about in your shoulders?" And also by commenting on your own "I'm feeling really sad about the plant being ruined. I feel heavy in my chest and like I want to cry in my eyes". If you have a look on the internet there are loads of examples of how to do this. As they begin to be able to identify and describe more emotions in themselves, the anger reduces.

A huge proportion of kids with ADHD are also deficient in magnesium and zinc and I know so many parents who have seen an improvement in behaviour when they supplement with these. Have a look at the book Finally Focused which works through these with the scientific studies cited and some other advice.

Finally, one thing which worked for me was to become more accepting that my son's development is delayed - kids with ADHD are typically around 3 years delayed in social/emotional development. So, stratagies for younger children often work really well. Try thinking "how would I support a toddler in this situation". So, using your examples if you know there is a chance that he will ruin a plant you've bought, put it out of reach. Now he has tried to push someone in the road you need to increase road supervision and look for some road safety learning at a time he's calm. If he's trying to hit an older sibling, distract him. Basically what you would have done for your other kids aged 2.

My son has High Functioning Autism (used to be Aspergers) and he is extremely empathetic (except when he is overloaded with sensory issues, I mean he struggles with a baby crying, but will look after you if you are sick)

@DevonCreamTeaPlease oh I definitely don't agree. I sat through the entire process assessing my son. If it follows NICE guidance it will be very thorough. Ours was multidisciplinary. We had 3 professionals involved as best practice.

I really really worry when I hear phrases such as over diagnosed. No one is over diagnosing Autism. This is mantra being used to perpetuate a political agenda right now and it's dangerous. I don't mean you as such but this ' over diagnosis ' stuff being pushed out there, it's nonsense.

It's not happening believe me.