5 yr old son tried to kill dh yesterday

[StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh]

We were walking along a very busy road and ds asked dh for chocolate. Dh said no so ds then tried to push him onto the road. We both then explained to him how dangerous it was and how that would hurt daddy etc. His response was I don't care. He then pushed dh with all his might onto the road again. He then said hahaha I'm going to kill you.
This is our daily life what happened yesterday happens alot.

He punches his older siblings, breaks stuff. He screams at the top of his voice all the time.

I got myself a new plant today and was showing dh and kids it the minute I put it down He ripped it apart. He watched me cry and said hahaha it's dead now.

I've asked social work for help 3 times now nothing happens
His school are having the same problems. Even with a one to one full time. it's still a struggle for them He can't even eat lunch with the other children because of his violence.

The doctor put me one more medication for low mood and anxiety today. So three lots of medication I'm on now.

I'm scared for us but I'm really scared what ds will grow up to me.

He has been diagnosed with autism and awaiting a adhd assessment ( 3 yr wait)

Its not odd at all, its very common strategies and techniques for managing children with SEN/high presenting need.

OP, I think you're right not to ignore this behaviour.
It won't go away.
I hope that you get support, it does sound like PDA, which as pp have said, is often linked autism. Good luck.

Today with the plant he didn't go to the park with his dad as punishment.

Punishment doesn't work with him or anything. He really can't seem to understand it.

Punishment doesn’t work on any child because it doesn’t make sense. Why would struggling to control and impulse lead to missing physical activity and connection with his dad? The two are completely unrelated and so it’s illogical. Natural consequences work, discipline works, punishment does not - it’s arbitrary and cruel.

What parenting courses/books etc. have you consulted? Highly recommend How to Talk so Little Kids will Listen, Playful Parenting and Hunt Gather Parent. Janet Lansbury is very good too.

What work have you done on your own ‘stuff’? Parents often see the child as the problem, but children are just mirrors, they need to be modeled regulation and calm.

Punishment doesn't work with him or anything. He really can't seem to understand it.

Of course he can't. He's a child of 5.

You need help with your parenting skills. This isn't a criticism but I'm talking from personal experience.

Your title is written from an adult perspective.
Your son didn't mean to 'kill' his dad. At 5 he doesn't have that concept unless he's been exposed to violence on screens etc.

Please stop trying to change him, but look into changing how you all react as a family.

Just popping on to say, for anyone searching the MN archives for 'PDA' in the future and whose heart sinks at the very swift suggestion that PDA somehow explains OP's son's behaviour, that Pathological Demand Avoidance indicates a very specific set of anxiety-driven behaviours, which -more often than not- look very little like the acting out and apparent callousness OP describes. I'm very sorry this is happening, OP.

It is just as likely to show up as highly skilled avoidance strategies; excellent and creative communication (and sometimes humour) to achieve this end; chronic procrastination or clever distraction of the person representing the expectation (or 'demand'); internalised anxiety and shame, and extreme apathy and isolation.

My teen DC with PDA is funny, clever and full of empathy, but crucially responds to the slightest whiff of expectation with anxiety which is entirely internalised. Even things which DC actually wants to do become problematic: it doesn't matter whether the expectation comes from herself or me or anyone else -it's perceived as a demand nonetheless, and elicits the fight, flight, fawn or freeze response which a previous poster mentioned. We've added 'fold' to those 'F's to name the state in which DC will submit to an expectation which is understood to be in their best interest but which, due to the demand avoidance, they cannot allow themselves to actively participate in, but will let a caregiver facilitate, with DC 'allowing' the process to occur but in a clear state of detachment (a medical procedure or attendance at an appointment, for instance).

PDA can be supported by low demand / high trust strategies to almost entirely eliminate the anxiety and associated behaviours. The only times we have seen DC 'act out' was during transition to secondary school (high demand environment with low trust and safety due to new environment and relationships) and when older family members have attempted 'authoritarian' approaches to achieving aims: "Right, we're doing an Easter bonnet competition this afternoon -that's right, everyone's taking part! All entries to be finished in the hour for a parade before dinner." kind of thing.

I hope you find support, OP. And I second the PP who questioned why you are being medicated when the cause for your distress is so evident. There is an undeniable and documented tradition of pathologising and medicating women (often female caregivers) despite their di/stress symptoms being clearly linked to their healthy responses to sources outside themselves.

I agree with this. My son is autistic, if playing football and it wasn't going how he expected he would behave this extremely
Or lie on the pitch and scream, didn't have any awareness of others
One of example of many occurrences

He's now nearly 25, he learnt over the years to regulate reactions. Doing his masters, has a girlfriend he loves, lives a wonderful life

The plant example with my son would be that he couldn't understand why I liked it, so destroying it would make everything seem normal again

Don't think I'm explaining well, but this kind of behaviour DEFINITELY can be related to autism

And in my experience it can change

Agree with going private and getting a 0% credit card . This is urgent! He could hurt (or worse) another child or animal. Sounds pyscopathic. Awful for you op. I’ve worked with PDA chn but not seen that kind of behaviour towards others.

The lady reporting is well within rights to - the headline is quite shocking and there are a large number of threads like this. MN feel it's ok so that's put it to bed now.

OP, a huge issue standing out is refusing to accept the Autism diagnosis. If correct process is followed then they are Autistic. If you're parenting in a traditional way, at this age, it's going to cause problems.

The Explosive Child is a really good book and concept to explain how best to approach parenting in these situations as already suggested.

I don't know how much difference it's going to make with the ADHD assessment. If say this is PDA, then a great deal of difficult behaviour is because of anxiety and stress and a pathological need to control based in being autistic in this way. The control is over their life and environment.

Bossing kids about over little things like ' wear your coat ' etc and other typical basic requests tend to cause problems. That's why you need to accept what's going on ( they are Autistic), read up on it and then try out a few adaptations to parenting style. It usually starts with reducing demands that you can afford to let go of.

I agree with whoever said Conduct Disorder could be stigmatising at this age.

PDA kids don't tick various stereotypical Autism boxes early on. So to parents it can seem confusing.

Punishment or rather consequences DO work for NT chn over the age of 3.

This is an excellent post. Children with PDA need a totally different style of parenting. There may be more up to date books that others can recommend but The Explosive Child by Ross Greene was a gamechanger when my DC was little. OP my child also didn't look to me as if he was autistic, he was sociable and creative, but he really is and his PDA traits are evident when he is stressed. It won't always be like this but it will require some changes to how you parent.

Empathy is something i had to teach my adhd kids. They really struggle putting themselves in other people shoes. We did lots of role play, social stories, acceptable social rules you follow even if you quite don't get it yet.

I haven’t RTFT but wanted to make sure you get directed to PEGS who are a charity who support parents suffering child to parent abuse. Alongside the other avenues mentioned of private therapist etc PEGS can be very helpful to you as parents.

I’ve know a child with diagnosed PDA and autism and they come out with some appalling things like this.
I understand it’s rooted in anxiety and the need to control their world, but to live with this behaviour daily must be exhausting & upsetting.
If your dc is given a PDA diagnosis, there are some good people to follow on socials and support.

If you aren't a troll, you need some counselling.

The problem with that is he'll think bigger is better so when he's an adult....

It does sound so hard though, good luck

Yes I truly agree with your last statement.
I have worked with hundreds of children with challenging behaviours and this little boy is the only one that made me feel real fear. It actually felt primal, the way my body responded to him.

All my senses were constantly telling me to get away from him.

I am pleased to hear that the child you worked with is in a secure unit. I fear the destruction that they could cause people in their lives.

I think PP are incredibly naive to think that there aren't children like this. It isn't just meltdown, burnout, PDA or a case of better parenting. It is who the child is and it's about keeping those around them safe.

Traditional discipline DOES NOT WORK with PDA children. It makes things worse. Please, please stop saying these things, they are not helpful.

Psychopath alert ⚠️

I'm sorry, OP. Not much specific advice for approaching your son, but just wanted to say please take care of yourself, too.

If you've got extended family who could help, lean on them. Ask a friend if they could take the kids for a couple of hours on a Saturday. Beg your social worker for respite care. Come up with a system with your DH where you each get a set amount of time to just rest and not have to worry about the kids.

Basically, is there any way for you to get a break every now and then? Try to do meditation, or go for walks, or go to a painting class, whatever relaxes you. Wishing you the very best.

The lady reporting is well within rights to - the headline is quite shocking and there are a large number of threads like this. MN feel it's ok so that's put it to bed now.

Reporting is fine, @Wishyouwerehere50 , but troll hunting is not; posters can report without comment rather than accuse of trolling. It’s hard to be desperate, struggling and reaching out for help and have someone essentially calling you a liar.

OP you’ve had lots of excellent, knowledgeable and insightful posts which I hope have helped.
My DD is also autistic with a PDA profile. She has had periods of violence and loss of control and was helped with medication. I hope your son gets the help he needs, for all of your sakes.

And I agree that SS are generally useless with this sort of thing, but if you approach it from the point of view that your other children are targets of violence and being mentally affected - really stress this - they may well intervene on that basis.

Yep, in OP's later posts she spoke of empathy and caring which would be incongruous (assuming five's a bit young to have mastered dissembling & manipulation!) Still, it's useful to have info on the basic criteria. Children with 'conduct disorders' will all present differently but there will be recognisable patterns.

Props to you for raising your son to play a functional part in society. Must've been heavy going at times. I hope he's feeling mostly calm these days.

The problem with children like this is that it becomes impossible to show them love, so they want to grab attention by being naughty.

I think as adults we can't understand how any attention is better than none- even when it's a response to doing 'bad stuff'.

Even if he's having a 'good moment' I expect OP is walking on eggshells rather than showing him attention or engaging with him in a positive way. So he's growing up feeling rejected and confused.

I don't think labels help anyone TBH.
Both ASD and ADHD are in danger of being over-diagnosed and even when they are accurate- what then? Parents still have to learn parenting strategies for day to day life.

With both conditions, I do believe that if you want to find it, you will- the tests are very subjective and based on parental responses to questions. And both are conditions on a spectrum. There are people who are ND who are hugely successful in global terms - most of the giant tec founders, for a start.

Parenting skills are the way to go.

Hi OP, I really empathise with your situation. I used to lead a specialist unit for children who'd been excluded from school or had complex issues and were unable to attend. Your story is not as rare as people think, and I saw several cases where the kind of behaviour you describe manifested at home. It was often when the kids were masking in school to hold it together, then it all came out afterwards. And it's alarming - parents have told me about being threatened with a kitchen knife and all sorts. And it can be hard for professionals to believe when they don't see it themselves.

In all cases we helped the family get a EHCP (does he have one?) and a place at a special school with an autism unit, which was life-changing for them. Evidence is crucial, so please record as much as possible.

I taught many, many children on the autism spectrum, both in mainstream and specialist provision. Of course not ever child's autism manifests like yours, but it can and does happen. And when it does, you need support. I hope you find it.

This kind of thing is dangerously naive and harmful. Praise doesn't help children with PDA, and traditional parenting strategies only make things worse. OP needs specialist help.