5 yr old son tried to kill dh yesterday

[StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh]

We were walking along a very busy road and ds asked dh for chocolate. Dh said no so ds then tried to push him onto the road. We both then explained to him how dangerous it was and how that would hurt daddy etc. His response was I don't care. He then pushed dh with all his might onto the road again. He then said hahaha I'm going to kill you.
This is our daily life what happened yesterday happens alot.

He punches his older siblings, breaks stuff. He screams at the top of his voice all the time.

I got myself a new plant today and was showing dh and kids it the minute I put it down He ripped it apart. He watched me cry and said hahaha it's dead now.

I've asked social work for help 3 times now nothing happens
His school are having the same problems. Even with a one to one full time. it's still a struggle for them He can't even eat lunch with the other children because of his violence.

The doctor put me one more medication for low mood and anxiety today. So three lots of medication I'm on now.

I'm scared for us but I'm really scared what ds will grow up to me.

He has been diagnosed with autism and awaiting a adhd assessment ( 3 yr wait)

Everyone would be able to tick one box on an ASD questionnaire, but in order to be diagnosed you'd need to be approaching (random figures here) 80% of the boxes ticked yes. And only 5% (that's much more accurate) would tick all of those boxes.
Ticking one box doesn't mean you are ND.

If it helps my now 11 year old child terrorised our household from almost as soon as they could walk. Their inability to control their anger was close to what you have described, almost daily phone calls from school, banned from many clubs/after hours/holiday care. It was awful. At one point (aged 7) they chased me around the house with a plank of wood saying they would chop my head off. Aged 8 we got an ADHD diagnosis. Said child is on medication but the absolute lowest dose (consultant has described it as homeopathic) and the thing that has helped is their maturity, their understanding that their brain works differently and of course the diagnosis helps at school. Definitely still has moments of off the scale crazy but they are once/twice a year- not every day and nothing like what we had before. I was also questioned about whether my child had empathy (they absolutely do albeit sometimes it is not always apparent). I suppose what I am saying is don't lose hope. Time and getting diagnosed may really help. Tough times though and I really feel for you all.

PDA officially usually means:
Autistic with a pathological demand avoidant profile.
others - especially parents of PDA kids - also use this fabulous term:
Persistent Drive for Autonomy

the thing is that autonomy means even not wanting your own body or mind to demand you do something. Not just other people’s expectations

its a very complex profile.

and needs low demand parenting. And very different style of teaching and parenting than for NT kids and even from typical ADHD / ASD kids.

Naomi and Eliza are worth looking Into - to help understand your child’s brain a little more
https://bio.site/drnaomifisher
and
https://missingthemark.co.uk/

@Wildflowers99birds of a feather stick together…..

most people identify as NeuroTypical. Absolutely. I know many neurodivergents and I have a Particular job which means I meet many people. Nearly all of them identify as NT. even those who clearly aren’t.

there are a few who will embrace the ND side to themselves. But very few. As it should be given HCPs reckon only 20% of us are NT.

@Wildflowers99 in any case. There is a huge difference between having an autistic, dyslexic or adhd profile and experiencing some of the symptoms every now and again.

it’s chronic. Losing your shit. Having a melt down. Being overwhelmed by sounds smells or noise or even by choices and demands. This is not what the NT crowd feel every day, week month of the year.

Poor you. I have also met dc who were not just ASD or adhd, but ice cold, unbothered by any one or anything, huge theory of mind, cold and calculating.
Parents just had to get through it, do the best they could. The other siblings are affected.

The NT crowd? Really?

@Wildflowers99 Of course, most people are NT. I hate this jumping on the bandwagon of everyone’s a little bit on the spectrum or has a bit of ocd. No they don’t!

Yes absolutely this. I believe the likelihood of experiencing and responding as if traumatised must be off the scale in this group in childhood.

When I think how stressed and upset I was as a mum trying to parent and having no idea what was going on here ( I didn't realise until later), that alone is causing ACE trauma and attachment difficulties.

It's an inevitable outcome for many Autistic/ PDA people to be traumatised by mere existence in an NT structure. Maybe if I was ND and a bit better equipped then maybe the risk would be less in my example above.

I want TRAUMA to be acknowledged as SECONDARY to the original driver of these things. I myself kept hearing trauma when I kept asking for support, for an assessment! I was declined any help or assessment.

These neurotypes require total adaptation of response, not the same as trauma therapy.

We can have a strong visceral sense about someone, children too, that say to us ' arghhh'. I think it's important to admit that.

Some really will be on a path to something scary and we won't know for certain why. And no, I don't believe it's ' trauma '. I believe it's most often a complex interplay that might never become clear. I'm sure trauma will be part of it, not the driving force in many cases.

Let's remember that psychiatrists have been diagnosing Autistic people ( women especially) with all sorts, especially borderline personality disorders ( whatever that crap is) - when they really needed an Autism assessment. No one even realised or chose to consider it. Not too long ago in fact, mum's were blamed for causing Autism by being too cold in their affection - 'refridgerator mother's '.

Ref the child you mentioned, it could be all sorts of complex factors combining yet it's hard to tell or care to know when the behaviour is so awful to experience.

I'm not attributing that example to autism btw. I can't possibly know what was going on there.

I do want to highlight that studies have shown NT children have excellent instincts regarding sensing and responding to other children who are autistic. Studies show there is a natural proclivity to reject them, to run away from them. The NT children won't even know what autism is most likely. They just know instinctively that they don't like it.

How sad and heartbreaking is that.

Let's remember that psychiatrists have been diagnosing Autistic people ( women especially) with all sorts, especially borderline personality disorders ( whatever that crap is) - when they really needed an Autism assessment.

One of the psychiatrists who "invented" borderline personality disorder in the 1970s has done a lot of research about trauma in the last 15years or so, also informed by recent neuroscience advancements and has substantially revisited the bdp situation, saying that he believes that many patients originally given bdp diagnoses and put on a lifetime of drugs were in fact suffering from trauma, and that with appropriate help people suffering with such trauma could recover, without drugs. Interestingly, a lot of symptoms of high/moderate level asd and adhd in adults and children are also symptoms of trauma - many may in fact be suffering from trauma and would respond well to trauma related therapy (hich is complicated as there different types of trauma). It is likely that more will come to light about this in coming years, I think.

With a decent psych no child is going to be on a mystery path to scary things, I don't think, as they would be able to unravel and find causes and change the trajectory. The problem is finding decent psych expertise, if parents cannot research the accessible advice and do therapeutic work with their dc themselves.

But going back to the PDA comment by @Smallmercies - if you look at the parenting advice for children with PDA it is pretty much identical to parenting advice which follows child development reasearch... that is, the gold standard parenting advice which is in accordance with some 50 years of child development reseach which should be how all chilren are parented. Same for things like conduct disorder - the advised parenting follows child development research in the same way. Same for children with trauma except children with trauma also need input in relation to their specific trauma. The advice isn't "special" parenting, it is "good" parenting which follows research.

And trauma can be a result of parenting which is not informed by child development research.

I am sorry about your experiences though, it sounds tough and as though the people you were dealing with couldn't explain things properly at the very least. If they thought your child had trauma you should have been offered a LOT of help with that.

This! In fact these methods would be inappropriate and harmful for any child!

Does he have OCD, separation anxiety and/or tics? Is he worse when unwell?

Can I ask a question that I know you’re not supposed to ask but here goes…. Did you properly bolloc* him? Did you shout enough it really made him shocked? Did you take away his tech, toys or something else? Did you discipline him? I’m not sure I understand why we’re not disciplining sen kids. I get they don’t have quite the same understanding but bugger me surely they can be told no? And what’s really going to happen if they are treated the same as non ND kids when it comes to wrongdoings?

@Frazzledmomma123 I have been “properly bollocking” my DS9 for at least 6 years. FWIW I’ve also managed people for decades, including scores of blue collar unionised men who loved nothing more than throwing their considerable weight around. I take absolutely no shit from anyone and have a reputation at work for being (quote) “firm but fair”.

For some reason, despite all these amazing skills and vigorous commitment to tearing DS a new one, he remains stubbornly committed to being autistic.

🙄

How has this thread been resurrected after 18 months?

Because @Frazzledmomma123 decided to enlighten we plebeian masses with the staggeringly insightful and original suggestion that ND children might just need a good bollocking from their clearly hopeless parents.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but having spent several decades living on another planet with cotton wool in my ears going LALALALA at the top of my voice, it’s not something I’ve ever considered in relation to DS.

🥱