5 yr old son tried to kill dh yesterday

[StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh]

We were walking along a very busy road and ds asked dh for chocolate. Dh said no so ds then tried to push him onto the road. We both then explained to him how dangerous it was and how that would hurt daddy etc. His response was I don't care. He then pushed dh with all his might onto the road again. He then said hahaha I'm going to kill you.
This is our daily life what happened yesterday happens alot.

He punches his older siblings, breaks stuff. He screams at the top of his voice all the time.

I got myself a new plant today and was showing dh and kids it the minute I put it down He ripped it apart. He watched me cry and said hahaha it's dead now.

I've asked social work for help 3 times now nothing happens
His school are having the same problems. Even with a one to one full time. it's still a struggle for them He can't even eat lunch with the other children because of his violence.

The doctor put me one more medication for low mood and anxiety today. So three lots of medication I'm on now.

I'm scared for us but I'm really scared what ds will grow up to me.

He has been diagnosed with autism and awaiting a adhd assessment ( 3 yr wait)

OP why do you doubt the Autism diagnosis?

@StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh, I would agree with you that autism seems an odd diagnosis based on your first post. With the caveat that I am not a doctor or psychiatrist, the complete lack of empathy and conscience would suggest psychopath or sociopath tendencies. There are a surprising number of psychopaths in the population. Very few go on to commit terrible crimes but the lack of conscience and a devious nature means that they are able to achieve their aims with complete disregard of the consequences to others. Whatever the diagnosis, he is obviously a very disturbed little boy and needs urgent help and treatment. If you are in a position to go privately, please do so. Also, please don’t blame yourself. You want the best for him and the rest of your family. It also sounds as if you need respite urgently.

Have you looked at the Right to Choose referral? Unsure if you can do it for children but worth a look. I’ve worked with adults who did it and they got their appointment and diagnosis in a matter of weeks

Are there consequences for his actions? It sounds like you’re scared of him which for a 5 year old is really extreme.

I think you need to look into a child psychologist, urgently, if you believe he genuinely wishes to cause harm

Oh OP, this is hard. I'm glad you are on coping meds.
My DD was very violent, she eventually got an ASD diagnosis, and I'm pleased to let you know that the violence eventually stopped and she is now at university. (studying SEN and disability studies! - she wants to fix the system and lobby for more help for families.)
Things that helped were...
The Explosive Child book
A tiny (private) school with a flexible more personalised approach.
DD and Mummy time before bed.

The biggest one was the school which DD started at for Y9. She was a school refuser and we had tried 4 schools plus home ed prior to hitting the jackpot.
Mummy time worked well too actually. It was 20mins of exclusive me and her time doing a suitable activity before bed. (Favourites were lego, story writing and drawing).

If you had told me I would have a violent, wild, school refusing child, I would have said it was ridiculous, but unless you've experienced this, it's hard to understand.

Good luck. PM me if you like.

I will look at the pda profile in more detail.
We do believe he has some empathy. For example he loves animals and shows a wonderful side to himself around them his heart was broken when our hamster dead last yr. His sister broke a finger earlier this year and he was really worried about her. He kept trying to kiss her finger better etc.
His school collects foodbank donations so he takes things from the kitchen because some people don't have money for food ( his words)

That is really reassuring OP, definitely sounds like empathy. And not showing violence towards animals is good too.

I really hope you find a way forward, how hard it must be.

Perhaps part of the issue might be that you don't believe his diagnosis, and are therefore not able to understand or meet hid needs. It isn't easy, I've been there, but it's significantly harder for those who insist on denying diagnosis.

OP I feel sure there are ways you can help him. My autistic sons are both emotional, caring, communicative, creative....and make eye contact :)
The PDA one also had challenging behaviour so we worked his ASD out sooner but the other has masked (worked to appear NT) for years and is burnt out as a result. I wish I'd know sooner that he was autistic. It seemed soooo unlikely. But now that he doesn't have to mask, he is doing better.
Please know that your DS with your help can mature and develop skills and relationships and succeed :)

So sorry, OP, this sounds awful.
Possibly the most notable part is that a doctor gave you medication, as if there is something wrong with you for being depressed and anxious.
I don't know enough about it to say anything helpful, but I can't help wondering if there can't be some medication while waiting those three years.

I'm afraid you'll have to go private and pay for it.
The wait in the public sector will be years long.

Sounds awful.
I do feel for you.

He needs urgent assessment.

The waiting on lists for ADHD assessment can be hugely reduced by looking into Right to Choose.
Also, depends on area. NHS wait isn't that long where I am (weeks).

I absolutely believe her. She is describing my niece perfectly.

Do you honestly think all kids are like something from a story book?

Sounds similar to how my DS was at a slightly older age. He was eventually diagnosed with ADHD and ODD no autistic traits at all. He indeed tried to hurt me and his dad serious attempts.
My suggestions would be don’t dismiss parenting classes you can usually access through the NHS even if the classes are rubbish, meeting other parents in the same boat who really “ get it” makes you feel less alone. Based on what’s available in my own area even if you don’t reach the criteria for SW involvement there may be part of the children services which offer parent groups and these can also be a gateway to additional support, contact your local council, there may be a part of this service the school can refer your child to as well so push for that.
Look online there is lots of information available so even without a diagnosis there is much you can try yourself, NHS website specific charities websites for Autism and ADHD, they may have local parents group we had one in our area and we have a local drop in centre run by a charity. There are groups on Facebook as well, usually desperate parents asking other parents further down the line about what they should do next.
Oh and for all those posters advocating for punishments and sanctions they often just don’t work for these type of kids, you can sanction them from now til Christmas and it won’t make a difference you need to find your tribe as most other parents will blame your child’s behaviour on slack parenting. My other child is NT so they responded to usual sanctions for misbehaviour, my child with ADHD not at all.

What was be like before he started going to school, daycare or kindy?

So sorry OP. First two things that I thought of were ODD and conduct disorder. Good luck. It's shit. The one I know of grew up to be a slightly troubled adult with a bit of an anger problem, ( which they now solve by walking away rather than punching doors), but hard-working, loving and pretty much adored by everyone ; most people who meet him would never guess what he was like as a child/teen.

How terrible for you and especially your other children.
This is my unprofessional opinion; just what I would do with my child.

Firstly, your son is ill; no normal child behaves like that. He needs a checkup to see if he has Diabetes, decayed teeth, or some other chronic, irritating, complaint. I would take him to a private clinic if necessary to see a psychiatrist and to be put onto medication. It might take a while to sort out exactly what, but he needs professional help.

Secondly, the only way for you to react is to be totally consistent every time he is violent. Have an immediate ramification of his favourite toy being locked into a vault for 24 hours (and then his next favourite etc etc.) And an immediate withdrawal of your son to a secure room where he can not hurt himself nor anyone else. If out then it's straight into his car seat or a large pram with child proof seat belt. Also have an out door yard that is secure where he can be put for half an hour on his own. Always have a healthy sandwich on offer while he is calming.(He could be hangry)

He is a danger to others.
Try not to cry or react yourself; expect that he will be naughty and trust that you have a plan.
Never give into his whines for treats.
Try not to be violent in any way yourself, nor shout or become uncontrolled. (Difficult when a small boy is biting your leg off, I know.)

Once or twice per day, if you notice him being particularly kind, reward him by telling him so. Twice per week reward such behaviour with ice cream after dinner. (But withdraw the ice cream offer if he is nasty after that.)

Do you need a break by hiring a muscley man nanny for a few days every now and again, who can physically control him and activate what your words are sternly asking your kid to do. Go to the car - and strong man lifts kicking boy up and clamps him into his seatbelt. Ted is locked away for a while now go outside and play until you calm down and we call you to dinner - and strong man lifts boy outside and locks the door, and ventures out to stop boy breaking down shrubbs or breaking windows,if need be.

Set in motion a strict routine. No screens, no junk food, meal times at similar times each day and regular daily out door runs around the block, kicking balls and playing at the park. Bed times need to allow for 12 hours of sleep. Read stories and play lego and other engaging games every day for an hour with five year old. He needs boundaries, healthy snacks, active play, engaged and switched on parents as well as specialised professional care.

Predict his violence.

I would have him participate in the daily walk with you and his Dad again tomorrow but I would insist that he is strapped into a pram with secure seat belt. Tell DS5 that he was too pushy to Daddy and he is not old enought to walk safely.

You need to accept the diagnosis OP. There are different types of autistic people. The diagnoses can mean many different things. And HCPs usually shy away from labels with younger kids.

if they have diagnosed him then it will be right. Or at least partly right.

What I hear is a scared little boy trying to understand rhe world around him whilst being overwhelming and possibly trying to control it.

def look at PDA profile

Does he like cuddles? And 1:1 time with you or with dad? Try to grow your connection by really investing in your relationship. May help.

and you may well find traditional parenting methods - like rewards, shaming, blackmail, naughty step, putting toys in jail….. none of it will work.

you need to consider some of the parenting courses. We did a great one with jeanine Perryman of adhd wise.

she has loads of experience with autistic adhd dyslexics kids.

worth signing up for a consultation too. Her team can give you some spot on evidence based tricks and tips to try.

Best of luck

Ah @StugglingtocopeinEdinburgh, that is such good news that your DS has empathy for both his sister and animals. Which also suggests to me that some outside behaviour from other people may have caused his apparent lack of empathy towards certain people.

So I suggest that if you ever get any quality time to yourself could you write down two lists just for you - using a pen and paper is usually more effective than typing on your phone or computer - of people that your DS shows anger and lack of any empathy with, and those that he does show empathy with. Maybe start with the most important people in his life ie his family. If you could label the two lists as something like a and aa, in an attempt to not add too emotional a title to each list. eg 'good' and 'bad' are not very useful terms to use on this type of occassion.

Under one column you would put the name and relationship of someone that your DS has shown empathy for (eg Sally sister) - or types of people (eg boy or girl, man or woman) - and under the other column someone who he has shown some anger AND lack of empathy for ( eg Jason Daddy). If you know which column you would come under, then add your name and relationship. If your DS has anymore siblings then add their names etc too. Then Grandparents if relevant, cousins and Aunts and Uncles, children in his class that you know about, teachers etc. You might find it helpful to have a third column for those that you don't know if they would fit into either of the original columns.

When you have written down all the people you think it might be helpful to look at, can you then look for any patterns, some might be more obvious than others, eg are there mainly males or females, or roughly the same amount, are there mainly children or adults. If any category shows a marked increase in people your DS is more aggressive and/or uncaring with, can you see a pattern that puts them into a sub category of eg. only female children over the age of about 8 or 9 years old, or only male middle-aged adults? I am not going to try to tell you how to interpret any patterns you may or may not see, after all, it could be completely random, and even if there is a noticeable pattern please remember that your dear 5 year old might not be aware that he has such a pattern, or even why. So please don't confront your DS - I'm sure you are sensible enough OP to not do that, but I still felt that I should say it, as you are probably in a very emotional, and maybe confused state at the moment - or anyone, including your husband, your parents, your friends etc. who are personally involved. I would suggest that you need to see your DS's GP, who is hopefully yours as well, and discuss with them who they think would be the best professional type of mental health practioner for your DS to be referred to.

My personal instinct would be a child psychiatrist, one that has many great testimonials. Unfortunately, to find someone good enough, and within a short time frame, it might be necessary to go to a private - or joint with the NHS - practitioner, as I truly believe that the sooner your DS can get help, the more positive the outcome will hopefully be. Bless you OP, I hope that life can become a lot easier for you, your DS. and anyone else who loves and cares for you both 🩷

you need some support in how to parent him, he is too young for camhs.
the autistic society may have information

Whilst I sympathise hugely Op, I find your hyperbolic thread title unsettling because your 5 year old did NOT dh to kill his father and the fact that you think this would indicate that you need to secure some professional support privately so as to have in place very quickly - because your son needs to have someone who can help him and I don’t think that with this view of your son needs- you can appropriately do this

Why? Because you think his struggles and issues are down to what? Murderous tendencies? An innate badness?

I'm not a psychologist but am very familiar with American diagnostic categories. Conduct Disorder should never be diagnosed in a child this young. I think the DSM-V has a minimum age for it. The diagnosis at this age is ODD, Oppositional Defiance Disorder, though it is a hugely problematic diagnosis as the same behaviour can be interpreted as either anxiety-based or defiance depending on the observer and there's a known race based correlation. It is also a stigmatising diagnosis and so many clinicians prefer to avoid it altogether.

What I would want here is an evaluation by a really good psychologist/psychiatrist who is able to figure out whether his behaviours are rooted in anxiety or defiance/anger. That will be key to figuring out where to go.

I’ve absolutley worked with children like this. But it’s been behavioural not autism. However it doesn’t mean that the two aren’t linked.

Someone mentioned respite. Parents of children with confirmed complex disabilities and medical conditions rarely get respite these days.