Thread 21 Starmer - Casting Nasturtiums

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5298316-thread-20-starmer-spring-statement?page=40&reply=143217222

Respectful and supportive discussion of things political and beyond

Cat, dog, flowers, haberdashery tax most welcome

Certainly the most important political move of the day/week/month - possibly the year although god knows what’s ahead - and therefore surprising they don’t have a view. I guess they are a little stuck due to their erstwhile support for Trump & Musk.

If you can afford PS, you are not hard done by. You have choices, something many people don't have

We all want the best for our children, it's not envy.

By the same token - I was really offended by the Tory's Rwanda policy- because of our human rights (and discrimination) that became popular with Tories/brexiteers etc only for performative cruelty as it achieved nothing else - I didn't have to be on a plane to Rwanda myself or be a victim of it, to see that it was an awful inhuman policy that eventually unwound in law

The same is true for this VAT policy: performative cruelty for no benefit - just red meat to obfuscate other shortfalls and lack of spending on state education. For me (seeing as you seem determined to personalise this): it has nothing to do with affording it - absolutely nothing

And the only way it is retained in the long term us if we withdraw from the ECHR

I do love to hear other people's points of view.
If only the Tories had listened to other people's points of view.

Also, Kemi Badenoch doesn't seem to have grasped the significance of Trumps tariffs.

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/growing-gap-between-state-school-and-private-school-spending

And I think we will just have to agree to disagree Daddy.

Ed Davey is the unoffical Loto now

I'm sure we would agree Duncin that
1.The gap should narrow - as quickly as possible
2.That education needs a higher budget & SEND needs a huge overhaul & more resources

1. That we all want the best for our kids
2. That we want the best for others kids education, & that human rights & choice should be respected

Or maybe you just want 1-3 and perhaps that's where we differ

I don’t want to have to stop debating with you too, @derxa as you often have very interesting points and usually we can take rationally. Going on about spite and envy and calling successful people ‘no marks’ because you disagree with them means I don’t see a way we can have constructive debate. It’s nonsense.

I agree with all. We dffer on how to interpret the Human right to education.

Nobody's right to education and choice is taken away.

The truth from what i can see Duncin, is that you genuinely do believe in 1-3 but you have been lied to about 4;
I.e. that private schools are bad (ideally you'd like them abolished completely) & although there maybe some disruption or collateral damage to 10s of thousands of kids, it's a price worth paying
It's virtue signalling for no benefit with a cruel & competitive intent

I’m sorry you feel like that. My post was an emotional dumping after watching PMQs today. The government bench were all smirking throughout and all I could think about were the fibs and the petty grifting. People will say but what about Boris Johnson. Everyone knew he was a complete rogue. However I honestly thought Keir Starmer was a man of integrity pre election

I am not opposed to private schools. I wish the VAT law provided an exemption for children with SEN. But religious and single sex options are luxuries, not essentials. Private school for non SEN children is also a luxury. There's a reason why 93% of the population do not access private education.

I will happily change my mind when the spending per pupil gap has closed.

Actually I hate the way Parliament runs in the UK. The built in incivility of it offends me. Other countries do parliamentary debate so.much better.

My brothers kids went to PS, it was great for them and obviously many others, much like a holiday in an exclusive 5 star resort is usually better than a 2 star one in Weston-super-mare.

I don't want them banned.... can't speak for others though.

You want better state provision, that needs paying for, either taxes or borrowing as eco growth takes too much time.

Vast majority of people who use PS, not all, are very well off and the policy IF successful, will have raised 5 to 6 billion by the end of the Parliament, how many SEND kids will that help?

VAT on fees is a crude measure but it will raise an awful lot of money from people who, like my brother wont miss it.

Like I said, we disagree on that point and I will leave it at that.

And I would appreciate it if you didn't make things up about me

I am a teacher with a DH , also a teacher, . He teaches private, I state. My school has 1600 students and 5 TAS, which is mad.

I get all the points about SEN but I just wanted to flag up that when the SEN parents choose (and that generally is what it is) private education for their SEN kids , unless my DH's school is really unusual , they pay extra to that private school for extra SEN provision, on top of fees. There is a bit of a line being peddled that SEN parents are lower income parents scrimping, saving and sacrificing. I'm sure SEN parents, just as with all parents, come from every part of the wealth spectrum.

Tell me again thta private schools aren't raking it in. Private dyslexia assessments, exam fees, testing fees, resit fees, remarking fees, assessments for screening, 1:1 or small group support sessions, after school clubs. All charged for in the private sector.

They could pay the VAT without raising fees to parents- very few do. But instead they choose to pass the costs on to parents. Again and again. Genuine question : are private school parents lobbying the private schools about their profiteering?

I never comment on this debate - but from the totally stripped bare state sector it infuriates me that many, many private sector parents (and teachers and school leaders) have no idea, literally none whatsoever how badly funded state provision has become. Clearly that doesn't include daddy.

I'm not getting into the politics of envy stuff. That's just an old fashioned Tory playbook swipe.

Likewise your pejorative assumptions about my Netflix and eating habits

Think carefully about point 4 please

Totally agree. I’m not the greatest fan of Holyrood but at least business is generally conducted in a relatively civilised fashion.

Agreed. Even Wales (even as in - even within the U.K. rather than a suggestion we Welsh are chippy!) does it less confrontationally.
I didn’t see PMQs @derxa, I was out in the sunshine with a dog. Probably better use of my time.

I didn't make any presumptions about you.

The netflix and lentils comments was a nod to the advice that gets given to people who are struggling on MN, tongue in cheek. Next time I will use an emoji

Remember when we were told on MN that everyone could afford PS with a few sacrifices

I would happily see PMQs binned

Very valid points Puggy, & agree with much of it
Strangely the debate has polarised the 7% of kids as the bad / priveleged / entitled guys who are not only responsible for the Dystopian state system but also for perpetuating it even tho many (particularly SEND) were those most failed by it.
This is a false & divisive narrative as is the general assumption that they are all loaded.
Aside from private evaluations for SEND (charged by health providers) I havnt been charged additional for any learning support but the reality is that the education system can only be properly funded from general or corporate taxation : cut during austerity & beyond by the Tories but now, in reality being perpetuated by Labour tax & spend decisions - tbh indistinguishable from the Tories - & the red meat of bashing some 5-18 year olds kids don't fool me

Maybe you should think about relying on mumsnet threads or hearsay 😜
Touché

I recognise it as bullshit

I think the Commons should become a museum. And we should build a new HoC to encourage collaboration between parties. All this crossing the floor business is unnecessarily provocative.
we certainly don’t see the best of our politicians at PMQs. The assisted dying bill revealed that many/most do take their responsibilities very seriously (even when I don’t agree with them)

maybe even have HoC outside of London (fully appreciate that would be v unpopular and possibly unworkable for security)