Thread 21 Starmer - Casting Nasturtiums

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5298316-thread-20-starmer-spring-statement?page=40&reply=143217222

Respectful and supportive discussion of things political and beyond

Cat, dog, flowers, haberdashery tax most welcome

I sometimes get frustrated with the hearsay evidence that all will be fine

A bit ironic, given what you posted earlier. Also I said nothing about everything being fine.

The outcome of the ECHR case will be interesting. Will you accept it, whichever way it goes?

I accepted voluntary redundancy from an independent school in 2019 - before both covid and VAT. Schools close all the time. You can’t just point at every school closure or fee increase and conclude it’s all about the VAT

The best case outcome is that the high court will identify that the policy us incompatible with ECHR - they cannot & will not strike down the policy
Labour will then decide whether this incompatibility will mean that they abandon the policy - & sadly due to the misinformation about "lifting a tax break" etc I suspect they will then try to pass this through the statute book - which IMO has no chance due to both human rights & discrimination laws - only then will the policy be abandoned.

However, (you may have to excuse my tone again) but you refer again to my hearsay evidence when I have cited the ISC, Lord Pannick's advice, mumsnet threads etc as my sources: could you similarly provide your sources beyond hearsay that all will be fine, kids/schools are unaffected & SEND kids are OK with paying taxes on their needs & disruption

You realise the VAT hasn’t fed through yet? So there’s absolutely no way to conclude budgets staying the same in state are because it didn’t work. I agree state schools need bigger budgets though.

I don’t think religious/educational freedom as enshrined in the ECHR means single sex and religious schools are a human right. It means rights to worship as you please and to get an education.

You haven’t cited them very helpfully though - no links or quotations saying what you tell us they say.

I didn't, I know schools can close but equally sticking an additional 20% costs on to anything will inevitably have a significant impact & whilst some might stick their head in the sand & claim that these are everyday instances that occur every year - the reality is that this is a pernicious tax that will have many very negative consequences for schools & kids and no (literally none) tangible benefit - except for spite

Ah. If you are going to call it ‘spite’ we have no grounds on which we can have a civil discussion. It’s a childish insult showing a level of entitlement and personalisation of politics which I can’t handle I’m afraid.
Have a good day.

Sorry I can't be more helpful. I did however find this useful with regard to the high court case - it was advice accepted by the previous labour administration

www.counselmagazine.co.uk/articles/abolishing-private-schools-and-redistributing-their-assets-social-justice-at-the-expense-of-human-rights

I have not said all will be fine.

In fact, I have actually not debated the VAT on PS at all on MN I don't think and also don't think I have never actually said whether I fully support the policy or not. So not sure why you are demanding this of me given you can't know my stance on any of it.

I have not said your evidence overall is hearsay. All I asked was whether there was any evidence other than posts on MN about councils paying VAT on fees for children with SEND. You replied that there isn't so far.

Actually I think I might have said on MN VAT on school fees seems fair enough, so I retract part of my post above.🙂

Single sex education isn't a right. Religious education isn't a right. Both of those things are luxuries. Freedom of religion does nit mean you have the right to have your beliefs catered for in education or healthcare, it means they should be respected and that is all. All children have the right to an education. Human rights law doesn't specify that it has to meet parental non essential criteria.

By your logic, my children should have had the right to Jedi education, since that is what I put on my census form way back when.

OK you might be mocking this, but as human rights law stands in the UK: education, religion, the right to a family life etc are "negative rights" and peoples personal choices in a pluralistic society as enshrined in the ECHR
Essentially this means that a Govt does not have the legal obligation to provide you with these choices e.g. education of your choosing I.e. religion, single sex, etc but it can't prevent you (by outlawing or taxing) you so that your choices or human rights are infringed on -
under ECHR we are not obligated to take the choices of others e.g. others religions & we have a legal right to choose what we want
So your opinion or choice is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned and what is right for you cant be forced onto others
Unless "education" is not being provided by private schools or we wish to remove ourselves from the ECHR - and we go through a Rwanda type debacle again

Had to read that 3
times until I got it and laughed 🤦🏼‍♀️

I had various relatives who liked to pull this one on me, as a child, ad nauseum.

Oh, I’m sorry. Am I boring you?

I admire your intellectual contortions, but by your logic, parents could have brought a case to the ECHR before VAT was applied to private education, because they were being denied single sex etc. education because they couldn't afford it. Nothing has changed except the cost has gone up. And private schools have always put their prices up annually in any case.

The government hasn't prevented anyone from accessing private schools. Schools are not legally obliged to pass on the cost rise to their customers.

Private schools are businesses and they should pay VAT.

Private schools are legally obliged to charge 20% VAT - they may take steps to reduce costs to lower the overall charge but 20% on top of what they charge is now an obligation.

The govt are preventing some kids from going to these schools due to the cost increases: hence the court cases.

Some private schools are businesses, but many are charities (= zero profit)
But even if you think business (or "luxury" for that matter) is a dirty word - if it's core purpose is "education" then then how they are incorporated is legally irrelevant - See VAT on healthcare

Not sure how you could have brought a case against the Govt for VAT on the grounds of ECHR prior to VAT being in the finance bill - but I admire your intellectual contortions too

You can still get on well in life without private education you know @Daddybegood .
I appreciate that the Tories decimated the funding for schools, SEND provision , money for buildings repair. Teachers pay, etc etc the list is endless. Those 14 years will take a long time to put right.
Bridget Phillipson certainly has a lot to do, a lot she wants to achieve but as someone who sometimes needed free school lunches and then went on to Oxford she is a very good example of what hard work and diligence can do.

Eton is a charity. Tell me it doesn't make a profit and isn't a business.

We get it Daddy, you don't want to pay even more than you already do.

I won't be flippant and advice you to cancel Netflix and dine on lentils and tinned tomatoes.

I know perfectly well that you can get on without a private education thank you Karisty - I have 2 kids at state school too & advocate/ vote for higher education spend as my political priority.
I would imagine too that many kids parents who use a private school would much prefer for their kids to be settled in a good, mainstream state school - not only cos it's cost effective but because it's the real world.
However, for the 100 thousand or so SEND kids in private schools (without ECHP's) the real world effectively means home school or private school - both more costly.
Or the other cases currently being heard: two religious freedom cases and a girl sexurely assaulted at her previous school who has opted for single sex education - their choices of education (a human right) where home schooling was the only other tangible option.
But did Briggitte Phillipson tell you she would recruit 6000 new teachers, raise educational spend particularly on SEND - what's she saying now ?
what exactly have Labour done for education? (Ps im a Labour member)
Replaced lunches with breakfast clubs? - spare me
Personally I'm slightly miffed that BP thought her & her daughter deserved to be given free Taylor Swift tickets, whilst disrupting other kids education - she wouldnt want her kid to go without

https://bsky.app/profile/adambienkov.bsky.social/post/3llte5djxwc25

Kemi Badenoch's spokesman says he "hasn't spoken" to the leader of the opposition about her position on Donald Trump's upcoming trade tariffs against the UK.

The single biggest global news story this week and they haven't spoken about it

This Education policy is part of the politics of spite and envy. The government front bench are mainly envious no marks who exaggerate their pre politics achievements and hold an ever open hand for freebies. The VAT increase won’t bring in much revenue.

Nice - next you'll be inventing new names for my kids like Tabatha or Henry or some other pejorative, bigoted and untrue assumptions about others lifestyle