Can I ask what you do when you say no and someone just ignores you?

[iamnotaprincessbutisortofam]

So this is a thread where I hope people won’t start going on about implausible aggressive responses as I do have to work with this person.

My colleague is almost certainly ND, which is relevant. Also has a young son with quite severe special needs and he is very sweet. We had lunch before Christmas and her son was there and was quite taken with a fluffy cardigan I was wearing and kept stroking it. I didn’t think anything of it and thought it was quite sweet. He also took my hand and started stroking it. He’s only about six so not a problem.

As ridiculous as this will sound colleague has started trying to do the same to me: grabbing my hand and starting to stroke it and tickle it, asking me to tickle her (I know; cringing myself a bit here). She will literally sit next to me and suddenly grab my hand and start trying to stroke it.

It’s starting to make me really uncomfortable, and while I don’t think there’s anything sexual in the overtures for a moment it’s very intimate and even if we WERE in a relationship it wouldn’t be appropriate at work. It’s really embarrassing when she suddenly says ‘tickle me!’ in the staffroom as if it’s something we routinely do: it isn’t.

I’ve been really firm about not doing it - I grab my hand away, she grabs it back, I say stop it, she pouts and says ‘awwww!’ then does it again - I end up having to move away. It isn’t all the time but once she starts trying to do it it’s really, really difficult to stop her.

We’re both female by the way.

We are friends although I do find her a little bit awkward at work as she is attached to me to the point it’s sometimes a bit hard to get any work done, and I really don’t want to cause any trouble, but I really need her to stop with the grabbing and stroking.

I guess I’m wondering how others would deal with it, and also if others understand why I find it so uncomfortable.

I thi k you are being incredibly considerate of an someone that you like and whose vulnerabilities and responsibilities you understand and sympathise with. You don’t want to hurt her or cause her difficulties at work because this feels like something that ought to be solvable between the two of you.

As friends who meet outside work, do you text each other? If so, I think composing a very plain-spoken, straightforward text is worth a go. There is a lot of neurodiversity in our family and I have come to understand that some things are better conveyed by message because it allows time for processing and rereading. You can explain both that this is important to you but you don’t wish to upset her at work but that it absolutely must stop because it makes you uncomfortable and is affecting your friendship.

No-one told you to go straight to HR. That is not true. People are wondering why you have allowed it to escalate to the point she follows you to the toilet and the only peace you get from her is locked in the actual cubicle though.

There are a load of responses that were appropriate between her first infraction and now, none of which you have done to the point of success. She has carried on and you have carried on the friendship so you are unwise to expect her to change her behaviour.

Leave the thread or hide it or do whatever but blaming us for upsetting you when we all think what you are describing is very strange and your response to it even stranger, is not right.

There are ways out of this situation that can lead to you looking like a sensible person with a good work ethic but it's gone so far, we think getting HR involved is the best way for you to retrieve some credibility.

Remain resistant if you wish. That is your right but you are unlikely to know what you are actually risking and some of us are hard bitten by experience and are far enough back to see the bigger picture.

Sorry you're going through this op, it's a really tricky situation.

Ds8 has autism and displays a lot of sensory seeking behaviours. Last year he went through a phase of touching and stroking my feet. It sounds silly, but it became unbearable! He would crawl under tables in restaurants and try to take my shoes off, run out of school and drop to the ground to touch my feet, and constantly repeat "feeties" in a high pitched voice all day long. I tried telling off, begging, pleading, stern talks, distraction, punishments everything you can think of for the best part of a year. In the end, it all came to a head after an expensive holiday was ruined by him trying to get at my feet the whole time. I lost it and shouted at him for a good 5 minutes. Not my finest moment but it worked. He made a few small attempts to do it after but a firm 'NO' stopped him. Since then a hard stare is enough to warn him off.

All that to say, your colleague might need a bit of a shock to break the habit. Pick a time when it's just the two of you and loudly tell her that it has to stop. Hopefully after that a glare will be enough to put her off if she tries it in meetings or in front of others. Good luck with it, I know how stressful it can be.

@Noperope can I just say a huge thank you for this as I think you (and some others) ‘get it’ - obviously she isn’t a child but the behaviour isn’t dissimilar.

Stuff like this is very difficult to manage as no amount of telling, tell her again, tell her AGAIN work. They just don’t, and all the imperious MNetters telling me it’s my fault don’t change that fact!

It is probably one of the main reasons employment for people with autism is so low because so many of them just don’t follow instructions.

At the moment my plan is to be really forceful next time she does it and then if that doesn’t work I may have to consider getting in HR or whatever. But I don’t want to do that without having first dealt with it myself in a way that hopefully communicates that it is absolutely not acceptable and it needs to stop.

Wait to see the outcome of the meeting this week
Maybe she will be sacked at this meeting?

If she's not, you'll have to get tough. Really tough. But you know that. I think you'll have to shout and make the point very very loudly

I also think that before you start to shout telling her that her touching you makes you so so unhappy that you will have to escalate as a formal complaint, might stop her

If not, shout loudly

I don't think you should see her or her child outside of work

I'm nd and I'd end up getting incredibly cross with her over this, it's extremely inappropriate. You need to broach this with her outside of work and tell her straight up, do not touch me anymore I am not your sensory toy , stop asking me to tickle you it's bloody weird . If she doesn't stop then I'd have to end the friendship with her and report this to hr. You would not be the one loosing her the job , she would. It's clear she's extremely inappropriate in work in general if she's on a final warning , that's her issue.

I haven't read the full thread but you are in danger of responding to this in an extremely harsh way through exasperation, which could be seen as you having an issue.

I worked in a team of 2 others, one was a bully and the other was someone she disliked. The bully goaded her daily about stupid things. I could see what was happening and warned the other person she was being deliberately tormented by the bully to get a reaction, which she ultimately did. She lost her temper and shouted at the bully. Cue the bully was able to accuse her of being the bully. This is an extreme example but one which shows how responses can be misconstrued.

Take action and at least speak to someone about the position you are in not wanting to get her fired but this is unacceptable. You might even discover that it has happened before.

Think of it this way: you worry more about making her uncomfortable than the fact that she tramples over your boundaries, which makes you uncomfortable and possible an object of gossip at work.

Being ND does not make her behaviour in any way acceptable.

I've seen this happening...but between two senior pupils (both girls) at work. I had to tell them to stop tickling one another in class.

I've never heard of this happening any other time. As others have said, you're going to have to make your "No!" very clear.

So you have said "No!" to her. Then you do what you would do with harassment from a man. You tell HR.

You've said that you're worried that others will think that there's something going on between you? It's no good saying that HR will not solve it. It will - it will protect your reputation at work. You have to think of yourself.

I doubt that anyone would go to HR the first time...but this has happened multiple times and is obviously stressing you.

It's not your fault. It's so outrageous I bet you can't believe it's always happening. Even if she is ND this is inappropriate. Sometimes people do things because they know you won't tell and sometimes they don't get it. I'd give it one more go including stopping her following you, follow it up in writing and then go to your manager and HR. It will be a shame if she loses her job but she is not your responsibility and this is about you not her. She could stop this.

And make sure you mix with others as well so you don't feel so isolated.

If an colleague is, innocently, doing something annoying but not serious, better to tell her rather than humiliate her, or worse, by going off to HR. They are both adults.

I've known attempts to hound ND people out of jobs by colleagues who get terribly offended by them and who cannot cope with any sort of difference. I am not saying the OP should ignore the behaviour. I've said what I think should happen already.

That's a reply to @IntoTheVoid68

Say it in an email
or a text OP. Politely and firmly. You can evidence it with a ‘paper trail ‘later on if the situation deteriorates. Good luck

Obviously, we don't know what the other allegations are and if they're similar to this, but it sounds as if she needs professional help of some kind.

She HAS told her.

That's not what people mean. You're not to blame for her actions.

They mean you're leaving yourself and your own career open to harm by not reporting it. That part is on you.

The responsibility you feel towards whether she loses her job or home is misplaced. These things aren't your responsibility and won't happen as a result of your actions. If these things happen it'll be purely as a result of her own actions.

You'd not be reporting her maliciously. If she wasn't doing bad things there'd be nothing to report! Therefore nothing that happens to her is your fault.

Her behaviour is escalating. First to the touching and asking to be tickled and now to snatching at you. She is the one carrying out her behaviour. If someone's life has to be negatively impacted by it, it should be her life, not yours.

If HR are carrying out disciplinary procedures and she's not listening to them, taking it on board and changing her behaviour, then firing her is the correct thing to do and the correct outcome for safeguarding the staff and pupils in the workplace. It's not something you'd cause or need to feel guilty for.

The reason I've mentioned for you to make it clear to others, including your boss, that you're being harassed is because reports can come from anyone. At the moment it would be so easy for a third party to make an official complaint that it looks like these two (you and her) are in a relationship and behaving inappropriately at work making an atmosphere and causing everyone else to feel uncomfortable.

I personally know of someone who was reported for sexual harassment at work, for flirty touching/banter with a friend. The friend was (according to the perpetrator) fine with it but the witness wasn't and the perpetrator got given an official verbal warning (I don't know for sure about the friend but may have been unofficially warned about their behaviour at work).

You don't want to get caught up in a situation like that, it's better if the report comes from you and you're officially noted as the victim of harassment and not seen as someone who may be a semi-willing participant. Don't risk throwing your own job under the bus trying to protect hers.

I agree with those who say to stop seeing her outside work. One, it puts any defensive claims from her that you're romantically involved into the territory of less likely to be believed. Two, it puts your status as the victim of her inappropriate behaviour as into the territory of more likely to be believed.

It's not only her you need to be crystal clear with - its the bosses, with your actions as well as with words. It's harder to claim any kind of harassment when you're voluntarily also hanging out with the person as a friend.

Abuse within romantic relationships and the mental impact of it, the altered thought patterns etc, that stops people walking away is more readily recognised now, but abuse within platonic friendships still isn't really seen in the same way by most people (but it can and does occur in just the same way).

You're feeling confused by her.
You're unhappy.
You're experiencing unwanted touching.
You're being followed.
You're feeling misplaced responsibility for the eventual outcomes of her behaviour.
You're being isolated from sources of support.
Her behaviour is affecting your professional reputation and your relationships with colleagues.
Your boundaries are being trampled repeatedly by her.
Her behaviour is escalating over time.

This is not a healthy friendship.

Maybe in the sort of unhelpfully indirect way people use when they don't want to make the point, and which ND people often don't get. Clearly this person hasn't, because the OP says she's friendly etc.

She needs to make the point.

• Stop that. I don't like it and I've told you so before.

(and if pouty response)

No - I mean it. Stop.

And sure, if necessary, 'I'll talk to x if it continues'. But at least give a warning. Colleague might feel bad enough by causing this offence anyway.

She's being followed to the toilet. Honestly, just that alone needs highlighting to the higher ups.

Hi , you do need to email her and make it clear in the email about former warnings and requests for the behaviour to stop (mention dates if you can recall them). Make sure you have copies of the emails. I'm not suggesting it will happen, but it may happen that the tables are turned on you and you get the blame for either the touching, for encouraging the behaviour or for being aware of the ND and not seeking formal guidance/help from Management for you and/or your colleague who may be classed as vulnerable. You may also wish to approach HR if you have a separate HR department or Manaagement and ask for the Policy on Unwanted Behaviour in the Workplace (for example). You must seek Management help to cover your own back and for any emotional help you need to process the situation. Good luck.

Her last warning isn't your concern. Obviously there are other performance issues at play. But, she really is overstepping here, in any capacity (friendship/colleague/intimate partner). What she's doing AT WORK is inappropriate & should be dealt with.

You sound kind but maybe step back from the friendship if she's not respectful of your boundaries.

If you work in a school, could you go to your nearest SLT member and have a chat with them? Not in an official capacity, just as a "how would you handle this?'.

But more seriously, If your colleague's boundaries are a bit off, then she may be making children uncomfortable too, and that's completely unacceptable. It needs escalating from a safeguarding position. An adult who doesn't listen or accept another adult's boundaries chances are, isn't noticing or accepting a child's.

Both my boys have had similar sensory behaviours, ND or no though this is very very rare behaviour in an adult who doesn't have significant cognitive delays. My son knows what's appropriate and he's not even 10 yet. If it was me I would have something prepared to say, that you dont want to be touched and it's not appropriate and you will move away if she does it even once and then follow through and move away every time she touches you. You need a very firm boundary. If you cant move far because youre for example in a meeting Id say it straight after and put some space between you for a bit then. I reinforce physical boundaries, my body my choice and that we don't touch people without asking.

Is it worth considering whether you've made it clear to her that you do not like this ever?

I'm wondering whether she is viewing your "no" as specific to whatever situation you're in. And spelling out the difference and that you don't mean "not now" you mean "not ever" may help.

good luck