Can I ask what you do when you say no and someone just ignores you?

[iamnotaprincessbutisortofam]

So this is a thread where I hope people won’t start going on about implausible aggressive responses as I do have to work with this person.

My colleague is almost certainly ND, which is relevant. Also has a young son with quite severe special needs and he is very sweet. We had lunch before Christmas and her son was there and was quite taken with a fluffy cardigan I was wearing and kept stroking it. I didn’t think anything of it and thought it was quite sweet. He also took my hand and started stroking it. He’s only about six so not a problem.

As ridiculous as this will sound colleague has started trying to do the same to me: grabbing my hand and starting to stroke it and tickle it, asking me to tickle her (I know; cringing myself a bit here). She will literally sit next to me and suddenly grab my hand and start trying to stroke it.

It’s starting to make me really uncomfortable, and while I don’t think there’s anything sexual in the overtures for a moment it’s very intimate and even if we WERE in a relationship it wouldn’t be appropriate at work. It’s really embarrassing when she suddenly says ‘tickle me!’ in the staffroom as if it’s something we routinely do: it isn’t.

I’ve been really firm about not doing it - I grab my hand away, she grabs it back, I say stop it, she pouts and says ‘awwww!’ then does it again - I end up having to move away. It isn’t all the time but once she starts trying to do it it’s really, really difficult to stop her.

We’re both female by the way.

We are friends although I do find her a little bit awkward at work as she is attached to me to the point it’s sometimes a bit hard to get any work done, and I really don’t want to cause any trouble, but I really need her to stop with the grabbing and stroking.

I guess I’m wondering how others would deal with it, and also if others understand why I find it so uncomfortable.

And - I’m not ‘touched by her endlessly’ - I’ve made it clear I pull away, I refuse, I move away. I don’t sit there accepting it.

If she is ND, it's possible that she isn't 'reading' your discomfort (despite you saying no). I would send an email with a crystal clear message that you appreciate her as a colleague but that she must stop touching you and asking you to tickle her. Spell out that it makes you uncomfortable, you don't like being touched, and it must stop.

You are then addressing the problem outside the time that it happens (when she may be sensory seeking and in that mindset) and you have proof that you've tried to address the problem if you have to escalate it at a later date.

Is all this happening at work or in your personal time?

if at work, I think it needs to become an HR issue.

if personal time, I’d distance myself as a friendship shouldn’t be like this.

Good, she's harassing at least one colleague. She can get her job somewhere else.

Her ND is irrelevant, her child is not your problem.

She could be doing this or similar to any number of people. She's getting away with it because you let her.

Thanks for the advice. I can see I’m starting to be blamed for this which to be honest is upsetting and does make me realise why people don’t report harassment, sexual or otherwise, so I’ll leave it there.

You need to be very firm.
Ask her to meet with you as you need to discuss something important.
That should alert her to the pending conversation.
Let her know how uncomfortable all of it is making you feel; esp the following you around at work,waiting outside the toilet !!!
Tell her you feel it's making you question the friendship as no friendship should feel uncomfortable; it s giving you cause to rethink the friendship.
Then make some time and space between you.
She sounds a bit " baby reindeer ".

Then speak to her and say, "I've noticed that you seem very stressed when at work" She will answer and then say, "You touch me and seem so clingy and it's really bugging me so you have to find another way of expressing the stress OK?

Take it from there. Impress on her that what she is doing involving you is not OK. Don't apologise at any point or make nice. Be straight with her. You can do that without being unkind.

By seeing her outside of work, unless you put her straight, you are tacitly condoning the weirdness.

I think your problem is compounded by your friends ND, you're far more worried about upsetting her because of it but what's happening is not a reasonable adjustment Op. If you work in a school surely you teach the DC about consent and the right to say No to being touched and your friend should understand it extends to adults too. Can't you explain it to her that way? Tell her you let her DS stroke you because he's a child, it's not the same for adults

A lot of people don't need to report it because they sort it in the moment. That is where you have gone wrong with this individual.

If someone stroked my hand when I didn't want to, I would jump back and say "Whoa, What's that?" They would be under no illusion that I would not tolerate stuff like that and a further attempt would have me going out the door but you have allowed it and her child is copying her too so this isn't a one off.

You have to have personal boundaries and any frank incursion needs an immediate strong reaction. This is how you present to the world as a strong person that won't take any crap.

OK - you’ve made your point and I’m saying it’s upsetting me. That’s a boundary, isn’t it? Please stop.

Think she may have a crush on you tbh.
You need a serious conversation with a " do you understand" at the end of it.

OK @iamnotaprincessbutisortofam if you really don't want to report her, say this.

"I don't like you touching me like this. You must know I don't like it, but perhaps I haven't been clear enough. What can I do to get you to stop? I don't want to take this to your manager or HR just yet because I know you're already on a final warning and I would rather not be the straw that breaks the camel's back and makes you lose your job. But I really, really need you to stop touching me."

You’re not reporting it, though. And you’re not going to. That’s the issue.

It’s very hard to understand the level of passivity you’re describing. People find it irritating.

If you’re not going to report her (although you definitely should), directly address it. ‘I’ve asked you to stop doing this multiple times, and you know I don’t like it. So, why do you keep doing it?’

Reporting it would do no good.

I don’t know why people think someone who is

on a final written warning
doesn’t listen to her and my line manager
is having a meeting this week due to further allegations

is going to meekly listen to HR. This needs to come from me, and it will. I don’t think it is sexual; more likely to be sensory seeking but it’s very inappropriate and needs to stop. But apart from the fact I don’t want to be personally responsible for her losing her job and her son his home, I also don’t think it would be effective at all if she stayed in employment. What needs to happen is for me to be a lot sterner and louder really than my style generally is.

I don’t think there’s much more that needs to be said other than that.

And - do you know what, I don’t care if people find it irritating.

Firmly saying no and pulling away and walking away isn’t being passive. It’s the fact that these things have been ignored and lately she has literally taken to snatching my arm or hand which is what’s really getting me annoyed, and things need upping now.

People have asked me ‘what if it was a man?’ Well, I’ll turn that back around. What if it was a man? Stop fucking blaming me!

She's on a final warning for a reason.

You are not responsible for her previous actions. She clearly isn't responding to warnings. Again not your fucking problem.

I agree, you have to.

Stop worrying so much about the outcome. You have given her fair warning so any outcome is not your fault but hers 100%.

You have said that your colleagues think you are having an affair with this woman so this is already impacting how you are viewed at work. Use this to robustly defend yourself, especially as you are not 100% sure it's not sexual.

If the line manager is not capable of getting this issue sorted out then you will have to escalate beyond that person but you MUST defend your own position.

I do think seeing this person outside of work given all this, is asking for trouble. You describe her as a friend but she's not. She's already got others nudging each other over the pair of you and you have no idea what impact this may have long term over your career.

It's time to be your own best friend OP. Look out for yourself and stay away from her. She is not good for you and her starting this behaviour in situations where she felt she could get away with it, i.e. outside of work and in situations you have described as being where you kicking off would not be deemed appropriate makes me think she is far less innocent than you have portrayed her.

You clearly do care.

Not directly addressing it, as multiple posters - including me - have suggested, is passivity. You’re still not going to do that. You’re just proposing to continue doing what you’ve been (unsuccessfully) doing…but louder?

How do people even get to be like this? Where does this horror of direct communication come from?

but thinking about it it’s never happened when not at work

So she's either using you for her own personal comfort in a situation she finds stressful

Or

She's only doing it in situations that she knows you cannot react to her touching

Or

She's trying to get you to blow up at her in a professional setting so that You will get sacked.

Whatever her motivation she has behaved inappropriately with you (and at least one other coworker) repeatedly, refuses to engage with her line manager, refuses to listen to HR and is set on doing what the fuck she wants at everyone else's expense. So how is it your fault if she gets sacked? Does she hold no responsibility for her own actions? It doesn't matter how you phrase this to her OP, she doesn't care enough to stop, so just go to HR. None of this is your fault.

I don’t care if my post is irritating others. I do care (of course) about the issue I’m posting about.

I really need to leave it, as it’s just becoming a personal criticism of me which is unpleasant and unfair, given that I’ve dealt with it acceptably and that hasn’t worked and I’ve asked advice on how to deal with it now. I’m already managing a stressful job with two very young children and forgive me but I’m not up to being told having my hand grabbed at random moments is my fault because I didn’t hammer the door of HR down the second it happened.

You need to stop worrying about making this woman feel uncomfortable, which I appeciate for a lot of women is difficult.
Tell her to stop touching you very firmly but calmly and if she won't you will have to escalate it.
Her sex is irrelevant, nobody has the right to touch anyone else if they dont want them to

I think you need to actually explain why you're pulling away/saying no - maybe you have but have you said 'I really don't like to be touched/touch anyone like that, you cannot do that again, I hate it'

You’ve been given advice and you’ve had opinions. We aren’t required to give advice of opinions that you like.

If you didn’t care what we thought, you wouldn’t still be here arguing with us. You’d have left or hidden the thread one of the multiple times you’ve said you were leaving it.

She needs medical leave and/or support at work or a different job.

You need to be able to do your job efficiently and calmly...or even enjoy it!

It's not your fault that this is happening. If you go to HR and she is disciplined or loses her job it's a consequence of a pattern of behaviour and still not your fault at all.

I've experienced something similar but before I reported anything the work team noticed and took appropriate action. That was a short-term project, though.

It's icky. I'm sorry you're going through this. None of it is your fault.

There seem to be a type of poster who will keep badgering away until you agree to accept their opinion/advice even if it’s clear the OP doesn’t feel it is appropriate.

its clear this lady is your friend and you don’t want to get her into trouble. How would she respond if you were to tell her that her behavior is making you feel very uncomfortable and is upsetting you and if it continues you may have to reassess your friendship? Many ND people don’t get social cues and it’s clear that just saying “stop it” isn’t getting through. Do you think she would get it if she realized that her behavior might make her lose you as a friend?