EBSA support thread 2

[Luddite26]

Hopefully this links to Brambley Hedges EBSA support thread.
A community to discuss the processes and support each other when children are experiencing Emotionally Based School Avoidance.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead there are a few bits to unpick. Even if there isn’t a local ARFID service, is doesn’t mean you can’t get evidence from a paed, psych, OT, dietician. And you can’t request a referral to an ARFID service out of area if you wish.

You absolutely don’t have to accept safeguarding visits at home if you don’t want them/want to challenge them.

Moving on to the wording in F. It could be tighter. For example, “have access” isn’t brilliant. It is along the same lines of ‘access to’. “In setting” doesn’t mean in the classroom. It isn’t quite the same thing as safe foods must be with DS the whole day with DS deciding when, where and what to eat. Depending on other the exact wording, having access to being able to eat away from the classrooms may well satisfy the provision. You would also need to look at the wording around the provision DS is to receive. Because, unless it is clear in F, if you push, it may be that the solution is DS not being in reception at all with it not being his chronological year group.

If the classrooms are free flow and open plan, I can see exactly where the issue with allergies is coming from.

I don't think they'd consider moving him with it being so close to his transition to his new school. He's remained in that classroom partially because they have toilets in that class and it also states he must have immediate access to a toilet without needing to request adult intervention due to withholding as waiting for an adult or having to ask an adult is also a barrier here. All other toilets are out of the other classrooms and down the corridors. Not sure how that will hold up in his new school as I don't know the floor plan, but it will only be accepting 10 pupils and they've been proactive about talking with us regarding intimate care, so his current EHCP was built on the premise that we didn't actually know when a specialist would say they could meet need as it wasn't looking likely.

I just wish they'd also look at his EHCP and see that a child with significant communication issues and eating issues will find their new proposals incompatible with what the EHCP set out to do which was reduce barriers to nutrition. I would be happiest if they could just communicate what the allergen actually is, that way I can see if there's anything I can work with to make sure he had easy access without additional barriers around communication AND the other child would remain safe. He's come home today and instantly burst into tears saying he doesn't want to go to school ever again, but can't tell me why.

I'm happy for them to come and do their safeguarding checks to be honest as long as it's a means to an end and it reduces the stress for DS with transitions. I'm not pleased with it but I'll suck it up just so that then I can say I'm an open book and there's nothing to hide. Someone once told me do everything as though you might have to defend your position in court one day, so I don't want to interfere with a process that means I am cooperating whilst defending my stance.

The school can’t just provide you with another child’s medical information, the other parents may not have agreed to that. It may not just be one allergen either. It is very common for DC with allergies to have multiple allergies. There is also the possibility they can’t tell you the allergen because it isn’t yet known. In some cases, it can take a while to find what is responsible.

I just wish they'd also look at his EHCP and see that a child with significant communication issues and eating issues will find their new proposals incompatible with what the EHCP set out to do which was reduce barriers to nutrition.

This may be what the intention is, but unless the other parts of the wording are tighter than what you have listed here, it isn’t explicit what is required. The wording you quoted doesn’t mean what you are hoping it means. The wording you include about toilets also doesn’t prevent DS being in a classroom that doesn’t have toilets within the class. “immediate access to a toilet without needing to request adult intervention” can be provided within other classrooms. You may not think the school will change classrooms now with it being so close to transition but if you push hard when the wording isn’t supported by the EHCP, it is a risk.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t support DS, not at all, but I do think you need to be careful relying on saying the EHCP says X when actually the wording doesn’t.

You are obviously free to accept the visits if you I wish, I was just pointing out you don’t have to and it is acceptable to challenge them even if you were to later stand in court and defend the position.

It would be helpful if they could cross check your ingredients or give you a safe food that is on your list of foods for DS to eat.
Have you had any communication from school as to what has happened today for poor DS to come home like that. How awful.💐

@Jimmyneutronsforehead Gosh that sounds so so difficult for you and your DS. I wish I had some advice! It seems mad to me for them to expect him to continue in the mainstream school at all if he’s struggling so much and has a new school lined up.

I got a response from DD’s tutor at MNHES following my email saying she wouldn’t be attending the transition session and it’s unlikely she will be returning moving forwards. She’s asked to bring their termly review forwards, which includes the HoY and SENDCO from her old school that she’s still on roll at, to ‘see how they can best support her.’ It’s a shame they didn’t do that back in June when I emailed multiple times asking what they can do to support her and either got no response or a very short unhelpful reply 🥴

i have a good relationship with her old school so I emailed and gave them context as to what’s gone on so they are aware before the review meeting, and I received a reply saying they have a few students at MNHES and have received feedback from others who have struggled with the sudden change in group and timetable too. So it sounds like we aren’t the only ones! I am so frustrated by this whole thing as it was such a simple change in the way they communicated which could have avoided the problem we’ve had.

She also mentioned that they were looking into investing in a programme which provides online lessons and would dd be interested which I have said absolutely yes to. So I’ll see what comes of that.

SENDCO also said the school the LA consulted should come back with an answer within 15 days so hopefully we will hear soon. But she’s got a meeting with the case worker next week so she will raise DD’s case there.

To be fair to DD’s old school they have honestly been great from the very start of her having issues at school. It seems bizarre to me that MNHES are the complete opposite considering the type of children who are attending there…

They never seem to know when I ask them. I'm told he's fine when he's in, then some days I pick him up and get the dreaded "he's been a bit unsettled and hit someone", and when I ask what preceded the hitting they never know or say it came out of nowhere or it was at dinnertime and the dinner ladies didn't catch it.

It's a nightmare getting him in, then he leaves the classroom happy as can be, and as soon as we get to the car hes begging never to go back.

@Leafywool it seems to me a bit ironic that MNHES is looking at providing online tuition - surely students go to them rather than mainstream school to keep them in some sort of IRL school? MS can organise a package of online provision. Still it sounds good I suppose that they are having another go at trying to meet her needs. Gutting that it was going so well and then blew up.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead I don't know where to start but I'm struggling to think it can be doing him any good at all to be having these battles. Won't it be delivering him up to new school in a less regulated state? I would be tempted to keep him home citing his nutrition so at least he can be in the habit of eating and drinking again before he starts the new school. And check with new school carefully about how the grazing is going to work there. Keeping him in this school seems the wrong battle to fight, by the sounds of it. They won't or should not discourage you from sending him in, they are obliged to offer him an education and to suggest you keep him home might risk accusations of illegal exclusion. But if you're deciding to keep him home for his own good, the staff may quietly think you are doing entirely the right thing for him. Not that their opinion is the most important thing, but it helped me when we were keeping DS off to see that the staff who knew him and saw him there every day were not team "keep him in at all costs".

@Luddite26 I hope smallest settles down as they get used to the new routine. It is a big change. I do remember dealing with a little ball of fury from 5-6pm every evening when my youngest was at nursery. Exhausting for everyone.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead thinking about you and your son. I hope he's felt well enough at home to have something to eat today. 💐
@Leafywool It would be better if things could be done at a quicker rate wouldn't it. I hope your weekend has something lovely for you in it.
Thankyou @Piony time does fly with children doesn't it. Thankyou for your kind words.

@Piony it’s actually more ironic as it’s her old school she’s still technically on-roll at who is offering the online work! At this point if MNHES offer anything useful I will eat my hat 😂

He couldn't eat this morning but we had to get a lift with my uncle today so I could pick up my new specs and there was a mcdonalds nearby. Hallelujah for the golden arches. 20 chicken nuggets and a cheeseburger went down in less than 15 minutes. Hate everything mcdonalds stands for, so grateful that they are plentiful enough that there's always something to fall back on. He hasn't touched his evening meal but calories went in today, and thankfully heavily protein based.

Hey that's great news @Jimmyneutronsforehead. Don't defend using McDonalds it's worked and that is all that matters right now isn't it. Hope tomorrow helps can face something too. 💐

@Jimmyneutronsforehead honestly McDonald’s has saved us many many times in the past when dd has had periods of struggling with food. I dread to think how much we’ve spent there over the years 😄 So glad to hear he’s had something!

Good luck to everyone who has a first day of school to get DC to today. I am sending love and hopeful energies to all.

Good luck to them all today.

@Tickingcrocodile is DD going in today? I hope things will get easier. Does she have somewhere to go between lessons where she can relax a bit? It's hard to start with especially when everyone's still a stranger.

DD2 and DS in. I am proud of them. I think they were both very brave today. DD1 starts tomorrow but we're hoping that's temporary and we can find her a new place.

Well done to them @ISaySteadyOn . And to you too. I'm sure you have put many hours of work into making this possible.

Excellent news @ISaySteadyOn, you definitely should be very proud!

I feel like all I do is post long whinging posts on here but i’ve had a stonker of a day. It’s the first day of term at MNHES today, dd obviously didn’t go in so I emailed absence and copied her tutor in. I then had a call from the attendance officer at her old school she’s still on roll at to let me know she will be visiting dd this week, which is fine. She was aware of what had happened before summer and I filled her in with the lack of support from MNHES etc and the fact I don’t see her being able to return there. I then had an email from the nice SENDCO at school who asked if I would be happy for them to withdraw dd from the MNHES service as we had mentioned to both her and the attendance lady that she can no longer access the setting considering everything that’s gone on, as it might be helpful for us not have to deal with communication from both MNHES and school. I replied and said I would like to say yes but wanted to clarify that it won’t cause any issues with DD’s EHCP/the LA. I basically don’t want to be seen to be ‘refusing’ to access provision even though dd can’t access it through no fault of her own. So I am waiting for a reply from her.

Then I got an email from DD’s tutor at MNHES saying the attendance officer at their side is going to contact me ‘as there may be some things they can put in place to help support dd back into MNHES’ (why couldn’t they do this back in June when I was begging for support from them?!). And she also said ‘
In addition to this, we need to know what medical intervention dd will have in place once her counselling sessions have ended. This could be private counselling or GP intervention. This needs to be something other than being on the CAMHs waiting list.’ Which reads to me as they are angling to try and make out we aren’t doing enough to support her health ourselves. I honestly think they are trying to cover their arses.

Anyway I have sent what I think is an extremely well written reply. Factual and explains our position perfectly. Ive outlined exactly what dd has been referred to by the GP and added an ‘if there’s another service we can be referred to that you are aware of then please let me know, as I am more than happy to look into this.’

Honestly today is one of those days when I want to tell everyone to F off. I’ve felt so anxious and wanted to cry the whole time on my commute home. Just horrible. We’re having McDonald’s for tea so I can eat my feelings 😄

@ISaySteadyOn I hope DD2 and DS’s day went well.

@Leafywool the question about input from HCPs is because your LA tries to unlawfully insist on ongoing intervention from health in order to continue accessing MNHES provision.

If MNHES isn’t suitable, pushing for other s19 provision that is actually suitable, won’t harm your appeal or the current EHCP. Having said that, I would hear them out on what they can offer in order to be able to fully explain why their provision isn’t suitable.

Therapeutic provision should be in section F of the EHCP. That way DD isn’t limited to support that is available on the NHS, she doesn’t have to sit on the normal waiting lists and it can be more frequent/for longer than is typically available on the NHS. If this isn’t in F, it can be part of your appeal.

Thank you. I did tell them in my response that I need to clarify with the SENDCO before speaking with MNHES attendance officer but I am willing to speak with her to see what they say. I am frustrated that I requested support many times all the way back in June and they either didn’t respond or skirted around the issue and now they are suddenly willing. I assume it’s because DD’s review is coming up soon so they want to be seen to be ‘helping.’

Also thank you I will double check section F (tomorrow as I’ve forced myself to put my laptop away!) but I am sure DH got that covered 😃

@2x4greenbrick They're good kids. They grumbled about school but the heartening thing was that it sounded like normal grumbling and they were both so supportive of each other. They watched a show together and DS bought some sweets specifically to share with his sister and then made her some lemonade.

@Leafywool , this is exactly the place to post long whinging posts. We need to have an outlet because we matter too. Your situation sounds frustrating and difficult but fwiw, I think you are handling it both graciously and patiently.

Thank you @ISaySteadyOn that is very kind of you to say. One thing having an autistic child has taught me is to have the patience of a saint!!

@ISaySteadyOn it's good to hear the ups and hold on to those.
It's a reminder that it's not won't it's can't.

@Leafywool I don't know anything about the ins and outs of all the rules and hoops they want you to jump through and I admire and thank those who are so knowledgeable, like @2x4greenbrick, my headspace just doesn't know where to start; but I am here as a cheerleader and support every step because I know how hard it is to support your child and jump through the seemingly impossible hoops.
Fact is MNHES let your DD down with what should have been basic communicating. Stand firm. I know you are exhausted without. But you are not in the wrong and neither is DD.
I hope tomorrow is a better day for you.💐

@Leafywool you're not whinging at all, you are dealing with a crisis. One that plays out over months rather than days. It is absolutely nerve shredding.

I wonder if the attendance officer might be angling for evidence that you have the MH side covered out of school so they can write down that therapy is ongoing and they did not need to provide it. It might be "just" slopey shoulders rather than looking for evidence of your "failure". The language round what "needs" to happen is odd, maybe because they actually can't mandate anything of the sort?

It's a whole job in itself managing this.

@ISaySteadyOn I hope all goes well for DD tomorrow. We've not seen much of DS but that's ok, transitions are always difficult. It'll take a few days to settle in.