why the effing jeffing is there a Surrogacy board on Mumsnet???

[nevertuesday]

I have been on MN for 15 years or so and only just realised via a post in Active Threads, that there is a Surrogacy board on Mumsnet??

I only read a couple of the discussions there, along the lines of can I buy my baby abroad? has anyone else had a baby via Surrogacy?? so, looks to be a chat board to SUPPORT people try to remove babies from their mothers using cash.

huh?? on Mumsnet?

I wonder what those using surrogacy in countries like Ukraine and Mexico are prioritising, because it certainly isn’t the child’s or surrogate’s best interests

What do you mean by unblemished child?

Why do you always view it that it's at the expense of the child and birth mother? Birth mother's choice. Child loved by two parents just like a traditional pregnancy.

Just because something is wanted doesn't mean it is right or justifiable.

Policy now is to keep the child with the parents if possible. Much damage can be done in those crucial first two years by inadequate parents. Lifelong damage. So parenting an adoptive child can be very challenging. That would not be an issue with a surrogate baby.

Being taken from your birth mother as a newborn is a trauma. It’s not done lightly with adoption I’ve worked in that field. Giving up a baby at birth is a massive huge deal for both the mother and baby. You seem to totally discount that you act like it’s handing over a box of chocolates. I can only assume you’re not a mother.

Of course not but IMO it is in the case of surrogacy. It's the same with abortion. Some people can justify it others say it's simply the murder of a child. Both abortion and surrogacy are legal in the UK but both controversial.

Yes I can imagine if you thought you were having your own child and it was taken for adoption after birth that would be traumatic!

I agree with how you've stated this, even though I don't have the same opinion on surrogacy.

Do you think that international surrogacy, where financial exploitation is much more likely, is justifiable?

If a country has all the necessary measures in place then I've no issue with surrogacy. If it's in a country where people can just go about snatching other people's babies then of course not. Like going back to abortion- in the UK we have rules in place, if a country allowed abortion to be carried out at any stage of pregnancy or allowed abortion against the will of the mother then no I'd not support that.

Your responses this evening have been far more measured. I do wonder if previously you were being reactive to the way some people were arguing.

I think the "necessary measures" statement adds yet another level of difficulty to the debate (a bit like deciding at what point in a pregnancy abortion should be legal). The UK surrogacy laws are far stricter than the US laws. The US laws don't amount to "snatching other people's babies" in a literal sense, but are much more in favour of the intended parents' rights. It is very difficult in some states for a surrogate to change their mind. "Reasonable" payments are acceptable in some states. This means poor women may choose to become surrogates to earn money and then live with the regret when they realise that they can't change their mind because the intended parents can get parental rights at birth.

If I could get on board with UK surrogacy, I definitely couldn't with US surrogacy.

Yes when your dealing with very angry people or people talking absolute nonsense the response is different! And if you had continued to accuse me of something I hadn't said I would still be arguing about that.

Yeah America is crazy. I did actually watch a documentary about surrogacy over there and it actually showed cases of surrogates getting money from the intended parents and then basically doing a runner with the money and not following through with the pregnancy. And another where the birth mother decided to keep the baby and all the money the intended parents had given her.

I mean, you asked for proof that you'd said something and there was none, so you'd have been right to be arguing about that. It's one of the actual benefits of internet fora - there is a written record of everything. I put my hands up and said I got you confused with the person who started the abortion and surrogacy are the same line, which many people responded to, and apologised because I didn't want to misrepresent what you had said.

Some things that you did write were rather argumentative and caused me to think you were trolling people. For example, saying that things were "one-offs" as a means to dismiss them ("what's that? One case?"), and then laughing again when two more examples were linked. The same argument could be made for sending kids swimming in shark-infested waters because there are only a few news articles about people getting eaten by sharks. You can't just dismiss all anecdotes without backing it up with data. There are legitimate concerns, but I don't think that anyone knows how significant they are.

Another thing that seemed unnecessarily combative as well as poorly informed was denying that pre-birth experiences and pre-natal bonding don't affect development and long-term emotional health (on page 8 of this thread). They categorically do. Google: "Studies indicate that prenatal stress is linked to adverse neurobehavioral outcomes, including social/emotional and cognitive difficulties during childhood." However, it is not clear that there is research into how this would affect babies born via surrogacy. I have been able to find a small study that seems to broadly indicate that surrogate children have no higher incidence of emotional difficulties than naturally conceived children. There isn't too much other research into the area, but again it is a legitimate concern.

Similarly, saying UK surrogacy is fine when actually the majority of UK surrogacies are from other countries (mainly the US, which we've agreed might be much more dubious and open to exploitation). Most people wouldn't know this stat though, so that's fair enough.

It's clear that you have a much more nuanced opinion than you initially presented with. I genuinely did think you were being intentionally argumentative.

How can you compare sending kids into shark infested waters, which would be a known risk, with the fact I replied argumentarively with a poster who was against surrogacy and tried to prove a point by sending a link to an article about a father who ended up abusing his surrogate child? Unless you knew someone was a paedo that's very different. And because there are paedos in the world is not a reason to ban surrogacy.

Prenatal stress why assume there is prenatal stress just because it's a birth through surrogacy as opposed to any pregnancy. The majority of those studies will exist as a result of studying data on 'traditional mothers'.

Getting UK residency and a UK passport for a child brought in from outside the UK is a long complex process in the case of surrogacy so if you didnt have all the necessary information and paperwork and things werent done above board theres a high chance it would get picked up.

And then you get the posters on here who talk so extreme you think they would be talking about the murder of babies!

of course it isn't. the child's interests doesn't even figure. the only thing that surrogate parents care about is what they want.

You've completely misinterpreted my first two points. You may be right on the last one, but I don't know enough about that. I also don't think anyone has compared surrogacy to murder. Quote?

I didn't compare sharks to surrogacy. I said that disregarding things that run counter to your point or philosophical worldview because there are just a few examples is never wise.

I didn't say we should assume prenatal stress in surrogacies. I said that the long lasting effects of prenatal stress are undeniable fact, and that we don't have enough research to know whether this is relevant to surrogacy or not.

No I didnt say anyone had compared murder to surrogacy I said the way some people talk about the subject you would think we were discussing the murder of babies.

I do find it laughable that someone's argument against a subject can be based on a couple of bad examples. That's not an argument as bad examples exist with anything. It's not a reason to ban something or talk about people who choose surrogacy as if they are all horrible people. That's not you I'm referring to there obviously.