Woman evicted from NHS hospital ward after being stuck for 18 months

[SerendipityJane]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c897ew0ekp4o

So where should someone like this be placed?
They are very unpleasant to be around-for other residents and care staff.

A friend works at a very expensive care home locally to where she lives, where clients are well looked after - a high staff to resident ratio, and she loves working there.

• “ Definitely no smell of urine and cabbage here”

But a woman like this “Jessie” moving in would destroy the ambience and have staff leaving and would be completely unfair on the clients who are paying good money to stay there.

As others have said her behaviour manipulative and aggressive- and pretty disgusting -

So where should she be placed?

Definitely!
I did care work years ago in a holiday contract- they employed students on a pittance- the home had some sinister goings on with a male member of staff and a pretty but non verbal resident .

We tried reporting, but the manager said “ If you make allegations against my permanent staff you will be out of here”

It was a place for people with physical disabilities. Those who could speak were at a definite advantage.

I read this earlier and it does say she stopped engaging with them and refused a placement that could have provided care staff round the clock. I mean if she never leaves the room anyway then why was she refusing a placement because she had vague issues with the area it was in? It seems a difficult situation that was made more difficult by her own behaviour. It can sometimes be hard to help people who don’t engage.

How do they support these kinds of people in other countries?

And more broadly how do other countries manage social care?

The UK is dire for social care and mental health services compared to other first world countries. I'd be interested to know what they do differently.

They probably don’t tip toe around them bending to their every whim and demand.

This is the most horrible thing I've read in a while. No WAY other patients should have to witness behaviour like this, especially while they are ACTUALLY ill. Honestly I think in cases like this the staff should be able to just sedate (I know they can't) but why do HER rights to act as she wants me no matter how awful count for more than the other patients on the ward not to have to deal with disgusting and scary behaviour?

So where should she be placed?

Either in part of a larger, specialised unit with staff able to deal with her (and properly paid) or in a smaller ‘homey’ place laid out like a normal house but with carers 24/7 and a smaller number of people with problems similar to hers.

Someone above mentioned her learned behaviour. I agree that some of this behaviour is learned, and, therefore, might be hard to treat, so I’m not sure what MH support would be appropriate, nor would work.

I’d like to also add that someone can have such MH problems and also act badly - that is choose to act in a certain way rather than the actions being a simple product of their PD. So, both can be true: she had a MH condition and is acting badly. Not differentiating means that the person feels ‘untouchable’ and could persist in such chosen behaviours.

As well as the person I know with an extreme PD, I also had contact with a person through a previous job whose behaviour was not good. However, this person did not have MH problems (confirmed by medical staff and SS). Differentiating between what’s beyond a person’s control and what’s a choice is important.

Actually that's me reporting as you are being downright offensive.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate has done a fantastic job of putting across the reality of EUPD & complex needs.

There are other ways of self harming than cutting. I don't want to give details for obvious reasons.

I have come across a similar patient in my hospital, she was exasperating for all the staff that were involved with her care. I don't think you can truly understand how difficult this behaviour can be to deal with until you come across it first hand. Of course these patients are very damaged, but their behavior can be extreme and and an acute hospital is not the right place for them.

Resources really do need to be put in to protect other sick patients from this behaviour.

Only days after being diagnosed with stage 4 incurable bowel cancer, my DH had surgery to remove his colon. He was obviously not just in pain and unable to sleep because of the surgery, but was also having to come to terms with this devastating diagnosis.

On his ward, in the bed opposite, was an elderly man with some kind of mental health condition whose behaviour and screaming was distressing for all. But for my DH it was unbearable and led to him phoning me at midnight, sobbing and begging me to come and get him and bring him home.

This shouldn't be happening.

In a forensic facility?

Think some people on this thread would quite like her to be given strongs to wear and having to earn clothes or a pillow and bedding.

A lot of the posts on this thread is why I don't want assisted dying brought in.

I'm involved on a similar case,patient has been on an acute mental health ward for 13 months - EUPD, LD, MH and chronic physical health that she deliberately sabotages.

Turned down by every placement in the county and 2 neighbouring counties. Has been deemed to lack capacity around care, managing health condition and accommodation but only after a very specialist MCA conducted by a specially commissioned Consultant Psych.

In this case decisions will be made in P's best interests but that can only happen if a placement is available and will accept, and it will cost the local authority thousands of pounds a week.
It's a very sad situation with no end in sight. These cases are not that uncommon unfortunately.

Got to admit that was my thought too.

I work with someone who is just like this woman (very much 'diluted' as she's not pulling this stunt in hospital but is very similar personality wise)

Full of 'her rights' and 'her mental health' but refuses to take responsibility-nobody elses rights nor mental health matter,only hers

She is impossible to manage (believe me,the bosses have tried) but as she knows all her rights

Thankfully she's now off on maternity but she'll be worse when she gets back

In her case its very much a learned behaviour as her mother is exactly the same and the whole family pander to her

This is a joke-im all for this lady having a full say in her care,but at what cost?

Other people have rights too-the right to recover in hospital in peace,the staff shouldn't have to put up with her and taxpayers the right not to pay for her wants

It's a very complex case and she has very complex needs but staying in hospital isn't the right thing for her

What is?I don't know

I can’t believe the woman you know is breeding. And so the cycle continues…

You're just coming off as rude, entitled and unpleasant frankly.
It is common curtesy to thank people and apologise if you inconvenience them. I always thank the bus driver as I get off a bus. I don't just believe they are paid to serve me and so we are all square. Likewise, if I was wheelchair lady, I would apologise to the queue going past, in the same way I do if I have to squeeze past a queue at the supermarket till to exit because I haven't bought anything. The wheelchair lady apologising would have made the queue very kindly disposed to her and happy to step aside, had she just barged past, as is her right and as I suspect you would, they wouldn't be.
These little pleasantries cost nothing and oil the wheels of human interactions making life easier.

Yes I agree, this women should have had a lot more tough love years ago. I think pandering to her wishes has just fed the monster.

You wouldn't believe the story that led to this lady having a baby

I'd tell it but I don't want to derail this thread but it's a filthy story and if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes,I'd dismiss it as fiction

The cycle will continue-I work with her brother and he's exactly the same

Full of wailing about how he's not coping with his mental health and knows his rights but refuses to take responsibility for these rights or refuses to take steps to help himself

Both will attack you the second you walk into work,wailing about their mental health and how unfair work is being for not wiping their arses for them

Work could not have done more to help,but they reject this help and support but then wail they are not getting any help and support (I.e they are not getting their own way)

They are impossible to deal with and neither do any work-they are too busy crying in the office or standing in the corner crying and screaming

The family have 3 young children that will continue the cycle including this new baby

No idea how she was allowed all that clutter, there's no way that wld be allowed where I work, infection control & fire safety would put a stop to it, total hazard.
Having worked with similar sounding patients, they often want to remain in hospital & will sabotage any placement or housing service they go to.

I have had experience of caring for people like the lady in the article in the community. Some have had a diagnosis and others didn't.
When ever we sought MH input, the person assessing them would always come back and say two things,

1. The person had capacity, which was understandable as it is actually rare that someone lacks any capacity to make any decision.

1. It was behavioural and therefore there was nothing they could do to help and the referral would be ended. Which left people with minimal MH training to deal with the 'behavioural' behaviour as best they could.

I do think having better MH training for HCP, would be helpful, although I appreciate it may not offer any solutions to this sort of situation.

More tough love?
Describe that to me? Is it being stern? A raised voice? Coercion? You do this or else?
Tell me how trained staff (medics,AHP,nurses) with registration tough love a vulnerable adult? Tell me how that’s justified to Registration authorities and CQC.

How do you compel staff to tough love a vulnerable woman? if staff won’t administer tough love are they themselves then tough loved? That’s a lot of tough love…

There are mandatory and statutory processes and expected behaviour to protect individuals and maintain an appropriate working relationship

looking at the trust website I can’t see tough love listed…
We work together with our partners to ensure that everyone who comes through our doors receives compassionate, person-centred care, regardless of their background or circumstances

All this bish bash just get her told…tough love…it is empty rhetoric

As I said behind every Simple solution is a complex problem

If they have capacity and it is behavioural why on earth should the tax payer be paying for 24 hour care? Could I just decide to start behaving badly and get the council to pay for people to come and look after me?

Having capacity does not mean you are able to live with out support

you need to stop thinking that the people we are talking about think/feel like you or I they do not. How they experience the world, how they process and manage emotions is very very different their experience in everyday life is very different

Yes, I thought this. Can you imagine how appalling it must be to have to live with her? I feel for the staff but I feel for the residents even more.

Realistically, once they had her stuff shipped to her, they filled her spot sharpish so there was no way she could be returned.

They don't even need to do that, just say that they are unable to manage her under their criteria.