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Ableism on mumsnet

174 replies

Kitten1982 · 05/02/2025 10:36

This was my reply on another post but I wanted to share it in its own thread because I’m so shocked and saddened by the comments I see about disability and disability benefits on here. I’ve been so distressed by some of them, I ended up in tears yesterday. The way some mumsnetters talk about disabled people is not only disgusting, it’s downright dangerous and you’re allowing governments to pave the way to leave more of us dead, just like many of us died due to Tory austerity.

i know there’s a lot of older people on here who might have more conservative views and I know there’s a lot of middle class people on here who don’t know what it’s like to rely on such a pittance, and don’t spare a second to think about how little money it is- nor ask themselves why we’d choose to live on too little money, constantly with the precarity of the whims of assessors (who have targets) and governments, rather than work. I have a first class degree and plenty of relative experience to get a job. I was meant to be moving onto my PhD when I developed even more conditions.

This is a plea from the bottom of my heart and the many vulnerable people I campaign with feel unanimously the same. You’re making suffering people suffer more. Think about that.

Anyway, here’s the reply I sent, please read it and inform yourselves before commenting on fake disabled people defrauding the state, or real disabled people not bothering to work…

TBC, that group of people is so small that it’s offensive when people raise it. The UK fraud rate for disability benefits is 0.2%. It’s not worth mentioning and it muddies the water and it allows people to diagnose people as frauds by eye. Like those people who see someone stand up from their wheelchair and assume they’re a fraud because they think all wheelchair users are paralysed. Or people whose disabilities aren’t visible having to deal with friends and family saying stuff like you did x, so you must be able to do y/ you did x yesterday so you can do it today. People who make those examples against chronically ill people aren’t medically qualified and if they were, they’re not the ones who performed their medical history, examination and tests.

if it was another subject, a lot of people would be more careful about allowing sweeping statements to be made about an entire population, based on the actions of less than than half of a half of a percentage point. It’s horribly unfair and it means that disabled people like me and my disabled DC are looked at with suspicion by the general public.

i wrote something a few years back- it was published for scope and was a guest post for Mumsnet. It was called, ‘I’m tired of having to perform my disability.’ And so many people agreed with the article because they experienced the same feelings as me about being paranoid about societal judgements. So a lot of us ending up vocalising our pain when we’d otherwise be silent in it (which makes it easier to cope with) or having to transfer out of my wheelchair in a way society expects and accepts, rather than the way which is comfortable for me. It’s not fair that 0.2% of people who’ve decided to pretend our disabilities are having such an awful impact on the 99.8% who are genuine, not to mention all the genuine people who are wrongly turned down and have to appeal and put in for tribunals, and go through a hell of a lot of work to generate the necessary evidence.

if I only had one of my conditions (uncontrolled epilepsy with cluster seizures- which require emergency meds, but can also make me blind, paralysed, psychotic, incontinent, and wander off in my wheelchair), I would still need to claim disability benefits. But without my other conditions, I would seem just like anyone else between seizures, even though I have to have someone with me who’s trained to use my life saving medication at all times, it wouldn’t impact my other functions outside of the above. And when I am experiencing the above problems, my kids try to keep me inside the house (when I’m trying to run away in fear because the seizures have that impact on me afterwards) and I often just doze in bed, sometimes for a couple of days. I am often left with horrible vomiting and migraines. How would someone know what I look like when I’m very unwell when I’m either in bed or in hospital when it happens? Friends visit me in hospital, but only when I’m on the mend. They’ve seen seizures but only a couple have seen the clusters, and only one has seen my debilitating projectile vomiting condition (cvs- look it up. It goes beyond vomiting and is debilitating) because I don’t want to see people when I feel so unwell. The only reason the one friend who’s seen it has seen it is because she came to see me in hospital sans warning so I was still too ill to want visitors when she came in. So please, everyone, stop judging people as fakers and fit and we’ll because you really don’t have a clue.

i know I'm going to die young because of my health conditions (I’m 42 now and in 6 years alone I’ve been in trauma/ resus 10 times and have to be hospitalised several times a year. I lost a friend af the age of 34 to 2 of the same conditions as me, and another at 45), and I am so scared about whether my sons will be able to figure out the forms after I’m gone. Basically, I’m trying to create a guide for my eldest for how to fill in the forms for each of his brothers (he also has bipolar himself but doesn’t claim anything for it).

Can those (by no means do I only refer to the person I’m quoting but others on this thread) please actually do some research, but about fraudulence with disability benefits, but also relapsing and remitting conditions? In adding suspicions and repeating cliches which don’t apply to many, many disabilities, you’re allowing govts to effectively commit eugenics by starving us to death. Please stop, I beg you all.

As a final note: people rarely get disability benefits for low level mental illness, as otherwise claimed by the govt. My 22yo suffers from bipolar, CPTSD, and very severe social anxiety, as well as inheriting cvs, but he won’t claim, tries his hardest to get in to college for his course, and since he lost his last job for having to be taken into A&E due to throwing up blood whilst still on probation in the job, he’s worked his arse off to find other work (side note: if anyone has something in southern central Hampshire, please message. He’s training as a mechanic but he’s worked in restaurants, helped me to run my former business on the admin side, and he’s carer to 3 people, so he’s very responsible.). I have been disabled for 42 years and only gave up my business a year ago, despite having 12 conditions during the total time I ran this particular business, and other people to whom I have to be a carer- albeit through advice, admin and verbal help.

Just please stop assuming relapsing and remitting conditions are fake or not as bad as the sufferer says; stop saying mental illness can be overcome- some people can, others can’t, it’s not a personal failing; stop assuming your eyes can tell you someone’s whole health experience; and stop assuming disability benefits are too generous (actually some of the lowest in Europe vs cost of living), or that it’s easy to get disability benefits for “scroungers” because they’re hard enough for genuinely disabled people to claim.

Disabled people need the vocal public support of others right now because if they ever do manage to get the green paper through, we could lose PIP to an insufficient catalogue,, and the WCA will turn away more people like me (people with multiple complex conditions). Disabled people are in for having to survive a political storm when all we’ve done to deserve wicked treatment is being disabled. Life’s hard enough as a disabled person when society doesn’t try to tear you down and the govt isn’t trying to force you into starvation. Please be kinder.

OP posts:
LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:45

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:38

No, this is a completely different point and in no way deflects from the fact that the 0.4% figure is almost certainly inaccurate and that fraud is a huge problem. Not only does it cost the taxpayer a lot of money but it also undermines the system and is a huge cause of the resentment and anger that people feel towards benefit claimants. This doesn't serve anybody other than the fraudsters who merrily hide amongst the genuine claimants and effectively use the genuine claimants as human shields to hide their wrong doing.

Why on earth wouldn't you want fraudulent claims acknowledged and rooted out?

Why wouldn't you want the costly assessments, giving people the wrong awards, that is costing the taxpayer so much more than the minute level of fraud dealt with as well? Why does that not concern you, when it is costing so much more? I am more concerned with that, since you are asking.

alwaysMakingItsofar · 07/02/2025 13:45

you know, we live in an area where there is lots of council tenants. Lots. Some have benefits, some look healthy but clearly have benefits because they leave the flats just to go to do some shopping. Some love to buy random stuff and come back with bags filled with charity shop teddy bears. Did some lie to get benefits? It is not my business. We are all individuals and scrape through life the way we can. This family of two young healthy adults who never worked in their lives and stay home all day long but ok, managed two lovely kids who go to school without a problem. Is this bothering me? _ No. Not my life. Do I pity the kids never have been to even one day trip in their lives? - yes. Do I pity them that their father is using weed and other things - yes, Is this a life I am going to envy????No.

Are the people who are sons of the establishment more capable of my neighbours for earning in the hundreds of thousands or more special in any way? - No. Each human being has absolutely the same value as an individual on this planet. Lack of money or a lot of money is not a sign of anyone's intrinsic superiority; Are these people who are rich have shown their moral superiority for having always the old money? No. - Sexual abuse within the family, expensive drugs, the wives in golden cages.

what is my financial life like? I work for money and also, my husband pays my bills. Would I go on benefits if he dies now? Sure I will. How that will make me feel? - Good. Because all I care is that I have food for my belly. What this has to do with you.

Is there moral police? - Sure, there is. I believe in God and His eventual recompense.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:50

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:45

Why wouldn't you want the costly assessments, giving people the wrong awards, that is costing the taxpayer so much more than the minute level of fraud dealt with as well? Why does that not concern you, when it is costing so much more? I am more concerned with that, since you are asking.

I didn't say I didn't want that dealt with. I said it's irrelevant to the discussion of fraud and also fraud isn't at a minute level. We have absolutely no idea about the level of fraud regarding disability benefits. It is by it's nature a very very difficult thing to study as you would rely on people either admitting they were behaving fraudulently (why would anyone do that!?!) or devoting an insane amount of resource tracking people's movements and daily lives to prove their claims were exaggerated.

Julen7 · 07/02/2025 13:54

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:50

I didn't say I didn't want that dealt with. I said it's irrelevant to the discussion of fraud and also fraud isn't at a minute level. We have absolutely no idea about the level of fraud regarding disability benefits. It is by it's nature a very very difficult thing to study as you would rely on people either admitting they were behaving fraudulently (why would anyone do that!?!) or devoting an insane amount of resource tracking people's movements and daily lives to prove their claims were exaggerated.

Labour/DWP have initiated a huge crackdown on benefit fraud which started last month. They are hardly going to bother with such a drive if there is no fraud.

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:59

Julen7 · 07/02/2025 13:54

Labour/DWP have initiated a huge crackdown on benefit fraud which started last month. They are hardly going to bother with such a drive if there is no fraud.

Have they, what are they proposing?

Julen7 · 07/02/2025 14:12

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:59

Have they, what are they proposing?

if you Google you can read about it, it’s quite recent. No idea how they are going to implement it but govt are hoping to save 1.5 billion in benefit fraud or overpayment.

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:16

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:42

For a condition like anxiety then this would be relatively easy to do. There are countless websites online and YouTube videos you can access to tell you the evidence that you need and how to ensure you have it all documented properly. Obviously I wouldn't submit a claim immediately without an appropriate body of evidence to support the claim. I would also ensure the form was filled in properly.

I may well get rejected initially (like lots of people do) but my odds at appeal would be very good.

A question back to you as you seem so sceptical about my claim. What evidence do you think a genuine sufferer of anxiety could provide that someone that cynically wanted to exploit the system couldn't also provide?

A question back to you as you seem so sceptical about my claim. What evidence do you think a genuine sufferer of anxiety could provide that someone that cynically wanted to exploit the system couldn't also provide?

I’m not sure why you’re asking me that. There will of course be people who exploit the system, I never said there wasn’t, but I still believe they’re in the tiniest minority. I made the point that it’s not easy to receive disablilty benefits and that genuine claimants often get rejected. This is true.

I’m part of many groups relating to my conditions and people are turned down with genuine medical evidence that proves what they are saying is true.

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 14:19

Labour would do well to ensure that those people who carry out PIP assessments, get it right the first time, and stop the need for so many claimants having to go for costly tribunals. They could save a fortune right there!

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:19

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 14:11

Ok I found the following from a few months ago, which sounds a bit ill thought out, but we shall see.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/sep/24/labours-benefit-crackdown-would-allow-officials-to-access-bank-accounts

I think that’s less to do with disability claimants and more to do with people who claim they’re not as well off as they are or say they don’t have a partner when they do. None of my benefits are means tested so looking at my bank wouldn’t show them much.

notthisoldlineagain · 07/02/2025 14:22

Ladamesansmerci · 07/02/2025 09:16

Such a depressing attitude. I don't know how we've gotten to the point as a society where we treat disabled people and poor people with such disdain.

Imagine thinking someone doesn't deserve any joy, or to socialise, or hobbies, because they don't work. It's callous.

They've made the disabled into scapegoats, along with immigrants. Instead of sorting out taxation at the top of the system - the wealthiest in society have become wealthier than ever before, are taxed far less than from the 50s to the 70s and inequality has soared with all the repercussions we are experiencing now, like falling living standards for the many and inconceivable wealth for the few. Just think about how the super rich increased their wealth during Covid. The gap between rich and poor is huge now. It's the size of this gap that is the problem.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 14:25

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:16

A question back to you as you seem so sceptical about my claim. What evidence do you think a genuine sufferer of anxiety could provide that someone that cynically wanted to exploit the system couldn't also provide?

I’m not sure why you’re asking me that. There will of course be people who exploit the system, I never said there wasn’t, but I still believe they’re in the tiniest minority. I made the point that it’s not easy to receive disablilty benefits and that genuine claimants often get rejected. This is true.

I’m part of many groups relating to my conditions and people are turned down with genuine medical evidence that proves what they are saying is true.

I'm asking you this because if we can't effectively distinguish between genuine and fraudulent claimants with medical evidence then it is obviously a system that can be easily manipulated. Yes, lots of claims are turned down initially but the vast majority are accepted at tribunal. If people abuse other benefit systems at relatively high rates then why do you think the 'tiniest minority' are abusing this one when it is much more difficult to distinguish a genuine claim from a fraudulent one? If I had to claim benefits fraudulently I would absolutely claim disability benefits as it would be extremely difficult for them to prove that I'm lying versus something like housing benefit where a paper trail could easily prove my guilt.

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:33

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 14:25

I'm asking you this because if we can't effectively distinguish between genuine and fraudulent claimants with medical evidence then it is obviously a system that can be easily manipulated. Yes, lots of claims are turned down initially but the vast majority are accepted at tribunal. If people abuse other benefit systems at relatively high rates then why do you think the 'tiniest minority' are abusing this one when it is much more difficult to distinguish a genuine claim from a fraudulent one? If I had to claim benefits fraudulently I would absolutely claim disability benefits as it would be extremely difficult for them to prove that I'm lying versus something like housing benefit where a paper trail could easily prove my guilt.

Like I keep saying, if you think it’s that easy, give it a try. Or get on the support groups and give them your expertise.

What I’m taking from your posts is that because you believe the system is open to fraudulent claims, anyone claiming disability benefits should not be believed.

Edited: Which is exactly the sort of ableism OP was talking about.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 14:39

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:33

Like I keep saying, if you think it’s that easy, give it a try. Or get on the support groups and give them your expertise.

What I’m taking from your posts is that because you believe the system is open to fraudulent claims, anyone claiming disability benefits should not be believed.

Edited: Which is exactly the sort of ableism OP was talking about.

Edited

I am not actually disabled though so why would I claim disability benefits fraudulently just to prove it's possible? That would be a terrible thing to do from every perspective possible. I also don't want to join support groups as that would be totally inappropriate. There are loads of resources available to help people claim benefits (that's part of the issues tbh as it makes it easy for fraudsters too).

Of course I don't think all claims are fraudulent or not to be believed. I never said that. I do believe there is a much higher level of fraud going on than many will acknowledge though

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 14:41

If it is so easy to claim disability benefits, why are 57% of new PIP claims turned down?

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:42

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 14:39

I am not actually disabled though so why would I claim disability benefits fraudulently just to prove it's possible? That would be a terrible thing to do from every perspective possible. I also don't want to join support groups as that would be totally inappropriate. There are loads of resources available to help people claim benefits (that's part of the issues tbh as it makes it easy for fraudsters too).

Of course I don't think all claims are fraudulent or not to be believed. I never said that. I do believe there is a much higher level of fraud going on than many will acknowledge though

And until you’re in a position (which hopefully you’ll never be) to try and claim, and know exactly how difficult it is, you really cannot comment on it with anything other than guesswork.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 14:52

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:42

And until you’re in a position (which hopefully you’ll never be) to try and claim, and know exactly how difficult it is, you really cannot comment on it with anything other than guesswork.

I have had a lot of interaction with the system despite not claiming myself. I really do know what I'm talking about .

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 14:53

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 14:52

I have had a lot of interaction with the system despite not claiming myself. I really do know what I'm talking about .

Ok then.

user243245346 · 07/02/2025 15:04

With respect if you're upset by posts on a message board then mn isn't for you. There are a number of things in your post that could be considered offensive (eg agism) but that's ok- it's just your opinion.

If it's too much for you to deal with different views, that's ok, but mn is maybe not the best place for you.

user243245346 · 07/02/2025 15:09

I'm asking you this because if we can't effectively distinguish between genuine and fraudulent claimants with medical evidence then it is obviously a system that can be easily manipulated. Yes, lots of claims are turned down initially but the vast majority are accepted at tribunal. If people abuse other benefit systems at relatively high rates then why do you think the 'tiniest minority' are abusing this one when it is much more difficult to distinguish a genuine claim from a fraudulent one? "

@Bumpitybumper - I think that's right. People defraud every system we have and PIP is based on how disability affects the person (which is necessarily subjective). The very nature of fraud is that we don't know exactly how prevalent it is! It's illegal and much of it goes undetected. So not all are fraudulent but I doubt we reliably know what percentage are.

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 15:28

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 14:41

If it is so easy to claim disability benefits, why are 57% of new PIP claims turned down?

Even the form is a nightmare to fill in, there is nothing easy about any aspect of the PIP process.

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 16:50

Reading beyond the headline:

The findings, released on Thursday and based on a government survey, found that just under a third — 32% — of those claiming health and disability benefits believe they can work now or in future.

A total of 5% surveyed said that they would be ready now if the right job or support were available, equating to around 200,000 individuals.

Soontobe60 · 07/02/2025 16:54

notwavingbutsinking · 07/02/2025 09:28

Given that it is impossible to design a welfare system that is simultaneously 100% accessible to those that legitimately qualify and 100% inaccessible to those that don't, my personal opinion is that some degree of benefit fraud is simply the price that we have to pay for living in a compassionate society that strives to support its most vulnerable members to lead meaningful lives.

It's a price well worth paying when you stop and think about the alternatives. The idea that we need to plunge everyone who is living on disability benefits into poverty because some people are taking advantage of them is obscene.

Edited

It’s a hard agreement from me here - and the same should be said about all benefits. I work with children with disabilities many of whom happen to be refugees, and the challenges their families face in getting support, both financial, medical and practical, for their children are immense. I’m immune to the comments I hear about ‘foreigners coming here just for the benefits’ when I know most of these families live in abject poverty.

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 16:56

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 16:50

Reading beyond the headline:

The findings, released on Thursday and based on a government survey, found that just under a third — 32% — of those claiming health and disability benefits believe they can work now or in future.

A total of 5% surveyed said that they would be ready now if the right job or support were available, equating to around 200,000 individuals.

The report is based on a survey of 3,401 health and disability benefit customers,
including those receiving Personal Independence Payment (PIP), Employment and
Support Allowance (ESA), and those on the Universal Credit (UC) Health Journey.

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