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Ableism on mumsnet

174 replies

Kitten1982 · 05/02/2025 10:36

This was my reply on another post but I wanted to share it in its own thread because I’m so shocked and saddened by the comments I see about disability and disability benefits on here. I’ve been so distressed by some of them, I ended up in tears yesterday. The way some mumsnetters talk about disabled people is not only disgusting, it’s downright dangerous and you’re allowing governments to pave the way to leave more of us dead, just like many of us died due to Tory austerity.

i know there’s a lot of older people on here who might have more conservative views and I know there’s a lot of middle class people on here who don’t know what it’s like to rely on such a pittance, and don’t spare a second to think about how little money it is- nor ask themselves why we’d choose to live on too little money, constantly with the precarity of the whims of assessors (who have targets) and governments, rather than work. I have a first class degree and plenty of relative experience to get a job. I was meant to be moving onto my PhD when I developed even more conditions.

This is a plea from the bottom of my heart and the many vulnerable people I campaign with feel unanimously the same. You’re making suffering people suffer more. Think about that.

Anyway, here’s the reply I sent, please read it and inform yourselves before commenting on fake disabled people defrauding the state, or real disabled people not bothering to work…

TBC, that group of people is so small that it’s offensive when people raise it. The UK fraud rate for disability benefits is 0.2%. It’s not worth mentioning and it muddies the water and it allows people to diagnose people as frauds by eye. Like those people who see someone stand up from their wheelchair and assume they’re a fraud because they think all wheelchair users are paralysed. Or people whose disabilities aren’t visible having to deal with friends and family saying stuff like you did x, so you must be able to do y/ you did x yesterday so you can do it today. People who make those examples against chronically ill people aren’t medically qualified and if they were, they’re not the ones who performed their medical history, examination and tests.

if it was another subject, a lot of people would be more careful about allowing sweeping statements to be made about an entire population, based on the actions of less than than half of a half of a percentage point. It’s horribly unfair and it means that disabled people like me and my disabled DC are looked at with suspicion by the general public.

i wrote something a few years back- it was published for scope and was a guest post for Mumsnet. It was called, ‘I’m tired of having to perform my disability.’ And so many people agreed with the article because they experienced the same feelings as me about being paranoid about societal judgements. So a lot of us ending up vocalising our pain when we’d otherwise be silent in it (which makes it easier to cope with) or having to transfer out of my wheelchair in a way society expects and accepts, rather than the way which is comfortable for me. It’s not fair that 0.2% of people who’ve decided to pretend our disabilities are having such an awful impact on the 99.8% who are genuine, not to mention all the genuine people who are wrongly turned down and have to appeal and put in for tribunals, and go through a hell of a lot of work to generate the necessary evidence.

if I only had one of my conditions (uncontrolled epilepsy with cluster seizures- which require emergency meds, but can also make me blind, paralysed, psychotic, incontinent, and wander off in my wheelchair), I would still need to claim disability benefits. But without my other conditions, I would seem just like anyone else between seizures, even though I have to have someone with me who’s trained to use my life saving medication at all times, it wouldn’t impact my other functions outside of the above. And when I am experiencing the above problems, my kids try to keep me inside the house (when I’m trying to run away in fear because the seizures have that impact on me afterwards) and I often just doze in bed, sometimes for a couple of days. I am often left with horrible vomiting and migraines. How would someone know what I look like when I’m very unwell when I’m either in bed or in hospital when it happens? Friends visit me in hospital, but only when I’m on the mend. They’ve seen seizures but only a couple have seen the clusters, and only one has seen my debilitating projectile vomiting condition (cvs- look it up. It goes beyond vomiting and is debilitating) because I don’t want to see people when I feel so unwell. The only reason the one friend who’s seen it has seen it is because she came to see me in hospital sans warning so I was still too ill to want visitors when she came in. So please, everyone, stop judging people as fakers and fit and we’ll because you really don’t have a clue.

i know I'm going to die young because of my health conditions (I’m 42 now and in 6 years alone I’ve been in trauma/ resus 10 times and have to be hospitalised several times a year. I lost a friend af the age of 34 to 2 of the same conditions as me, and another at 45), and I am so scared about whether my sons will be able to figure out the forms after I’m gone. Basically, I’m trying to create a guide for my eldest for how to fill in the forms for each of his brothers (he also has bipolar himself but doesn’t claim anything for it).

Can those (by no means do I only refer to the person I’m quoting but others on this thread) please actually do some research, but about fraudulence with disability benefits, but also relapsing and remitting conditions? In adding suspicions and repeating cliches which don’t apply to many, many disabilities, you’re allowing govts to effectively commit eugenics by starving us to death. Please stop, I beg you all.

As a final note: people rarely get disability benefits for low level mental illness, as otherwise claimed by the govt. My 22yo suffers from bipolar, CPTSD, and very severe social anxiety, as well as inheriting cvs, but he won’t claim, tries his hardest to get in to college for his course, and since he lost his last job for having to be taken into A&E due to throwing up blood whilst still on probation in the job, he’s worked his arse off to find other work (side note: if anyone has something in southern central Hampshire, please message. He’s training as a mechanic but he’s worked in restaurants, helped me to run my former business on the admin side, and he’s carer to 3 people, so he’s very responsible.). I have been disabled for 42 years and only gave up my business a year ago, despite having 12 conditions during the total time I ran this particular business, and other people to whom I have to be a carer- albeit through advice, admin and verbal help.

Just please stop assuming relapsing and remitting conditions are fake or not as bad as the sufferer says; stop saying mental illness can be overcome- some people can, others can’t, it’s not a personal failing; stop assuming your eyes can tell you someone’s whole health experience; and stop assuming disability benefits are too generous (actually some of the lowest in Europe vs cost of living), or that it’s easy to get disability benefits for “scroungers” because they’re hard enough for genuinely disabled people to claim.

Disabled people need the vocal public support of others right now because if they ever do manage to get the green paper through, we could lose PIP to an insufficient catalogue,, and the WCA will turn away more people like me (people with multiple complex conditions). Disabled people are in for having to survive a political storm when all we’ve done to deserve wicked treatment is being disabled. Life’s hard enough as a disabled person when society doesn’t try to tear you down and the govt isn’t trying to force you into starvation. Please be kinder.

OP posts:
PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 11:29

SlapTheMelon · 07/02/2025 10:46

Can you help me understand which part is ableist when people seem to agree full support for genuinely disabled people but it's the non-genuine ones like my BIL that people have problem with? 3 years on he's still working btw since he tried to fool the PIP assessor and he's fine.

BTW, you clearly know nothing about PIP. If you did you would now that it has nothing to do with the ability to work.

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 11:31

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 11:22

You know people can work and claim PIP?

It is odd isn't it that so many people who come on with their stories about disability benefits clearly have no clue about them. Wonder why that is?

JaneBoleynViscountessRochford · 07/02/2025 11:37

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 09:58

Well who are the 'most people' that you refer to? You did not say 'I' did you? So speak for yourself, and not most people, then. Hth.

Thanks for admitting that you were wrong then.

I stand by my belief that most people don’t actually give a shit about strangers on the internet and their long list of medical complaints.

CurlewKate · 07/02/2025 11:40

@Moonlightstars "There is absolutely nothing ageist stating that older people are more conservative for stop it is well researched and documented area."
The ageism is assuming that older people are therefore going to ableist. Also irrelevant-it doesn't matter why someone is ableist-neither age nor social class are excuses.

Neither, incidentally, is the behaviour of a mythical brother in law.

Febbers · 07/02/2025 11:40

The language used about disabled people is getting increasingly awful. It's becoming normalised by some.

I remember early on in the pandemic how some started speaking online - it seemed like deaths with any type of underlying condition were somehow more acceptable. People were saying things like 'they would have died anyway' and ignoring the bit about how many more years these people would have lived for. I think around 9 kids died of it over the Christmas week. I read about the DNRs. I saw people blaming lockdown on anyone with any vulnerabilities. Maybe that set the stage for the vile, dehumanising language now. Many, many people also became/are becoming disabled from covid infections - this shouldn't exactly be a surprise to government.

From what I gather (I don't have experience), it's a tortuous process to apply for disability benefits, many more need it than are given it and it has cost some people their lives. This stuff is pretty quick and easy to find; the fraud rate is practically zero, so I'm assuming the language is to shame people into not applying. I'm sorry OP. I can't tell you the level of disgust I feel.

bestcatlife · 07/02/2025 11:44

It's horrible. The recent thread about 'hating' people with mental illness was particularly upsetting.. ironically I'm still posting, but that thread made me realise I need to stop checking in on here. It's a shame because I don't have many people in my life and it's nice to chat to others (albeit strangers) but I'm sick of the demonisation of people with mental illness.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 11:45

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 08:56

Well they must have some idea, hence the figures given.

The fact that a statistic exists doesn't mean that it's at all accurate. As another poster states, how could the DWP begin to understand the level of fraud when it comes to disability benefits? How could they definitively prove that someone has exaggerated their condition when ultimately so much 'evidence' relies on patient testimony. If I say I have depression, anxiety, even ADHD or ASD then there is no definitive objective test that can be run by a doctor to prove that I do or don't have it, let alone prove the impact it's having on my life. I know the system well enough to know for a fact that I could access some disability fraudulently if I wanted to.

People are sceptical of the 0.4% figure because they know people in real life that exaggerate their conditions and get away with it. Of course this could be just bad luck that we all happen to know the 2 in a thousand people that are swinging the lead but it's infinitely more likely that people are manipulating a system that through it's nature is open to manipulation. Unfortunately this is what humans have done throughout their history and I think it's incredibly naive to think that people are somehow not defrauding the system when it comes to disability at a level that is at least comparable with other benefits. Housing benefit fraud is much easier to prove and stands at 4%. There is a greater incentive to put in fraudulent claims for disability benefits as it is much harder to prove wrongdoing so it therefore it stands to reason that fraud rates are at least 4% and probably a lot higher.

SlapTheMelon · 07/02/2025 12:07

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 11:29

BTW, you clearly know nothing about PIP. If you did you would now that it has nothing to do with the ability to work.

Yes but we know him and he has forms to be lazy. You don't know him. He even made fun of the application saying it's for freebie. You want him to get it?

SlapTheMelon · 07/02/2025 12:08

PandoraSox · 07/02/2025 11:02

Edited as I remember you from another thread now and what you said. Not engaging.

Edited

Thanks for the notice, you've just ruined my day 😂

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 12:50

bestcatlife · 07/02/2025 11:44

It's horrible. The recent thread about 'hating' people with mental illness was particularly upsetting.. ironically I'm still posting, but that thread made me realise I need to stop checking in on here. It's a shame because I don't have many people in my life and it's nice to chat to others (albeit strangers) but I'm sick of the demonisation of people with mental illness.

I agree. My aunty went through a really traumatic time which saw her eventually sectioned and then a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. It literally renders her barely functional at times and the fight she has had to get ESA and PIP is unreal. She often feels she shouldn’t be entitled because she hasn’t got physical health conditions which shows that she internalises that general hated and stigma.

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 12:51

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 11:45

The fact that a statistic exists doesn't mean that it's at all accurate. As another poster states, how could the DWP begin to understand the level of fraud when it comes to disability benefits? How could they definitively prove that someone has exaggerated their condition when ultimately so much 'evidence' relies on patient testimony. If I say I have depression, anxiety, even ADHD or ASD then there is no definitive objective test that can be run by a doctor to prove that I do or don't have it, let alone prove the impact it's having on my life. I know the system well enough to know for a fact that I could access some disability fraudulently if I wanted to.

People are sceptical of the 0.4% figure because they know people in real life that exaggerate their conditions and get away with it. Of course this could be just bad luck that we all happen to know the 2 in a thousand people that are swinging the lead but it's infinitely more likely that people are manipulating a system that through it's nature is open to manipulation. Unfortunately this is what humans have done throughout their history and I think it's incredibly naive to think that people are somehow not defrauding the system when it comes to disability at a level that is at least comparable with other benefits. Housing benefit fraud is much easier to prove and stands at 4%. There is a greater incentive to put in fraudulent claims for disability benefits as it is much harder to prove wrongdoing so it therefore it stands to reason that fraud rates are at least 4% and probably a lot higher.

It’s also much, much more difficult to actually be awarded disability benefits.

bringincrazyback · 07/02/2025 12:52

You are absolutely right, OP. This whole issue has been bothering me a lot lately both on and off Mumsnet, and IMO far too much naked ableism is allowed to stand unchallenged on Mumsnet.

TigerRag · 07/02/2025 12:53

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 11:45

The fact that a statistic exists doesn't mean that it's at all accurate. As another poster states, how could the DWP begin to understand the level of fraud when it comes to disability benefits? How could they definitively prove that someone has exaggerated their condition when ultimately so much 'evidence' relies on patient testimony. If I say I have depression, anxiety, even ADHD or ASD then there is no definitive objective test that can be run by a doctor to prove that I do or don't have it, let alone prove the impact it's having on my life. I know the system well enough to know for a fact that I could access some disability fraudulently if I wanted to.

People are sceptical of the 0.4% figure because they know people in real life that exaggerate their conditions and get away with it. Of course this could be just bad luck that we all happen to know the 2 in a thousand people that are swinging the lead but it's infinitely more likely that people are manipulating a system that through it's nature is open to manipulation. Unfortunately this is what humans have done throughout their history and I think it's incredibly naive to think that people are somehow not defrauding the system when it comes to disability at a level that is at least comparable with other benefits. Housing benefit fraud is much easier to prove and stands at 4%. There is a greater incentive to put in fraudulent claims for disability benefits as it is much harder to prove wrongdoing so it therefore it stands to reason that fraud rates are at least 4% and probably a lot higher.

Funny how you haven't mentioned the 70% winning at tribune or the millions in unclaimed benefits?

ImAChangeling · 07/02/2025 13:03

SlapTheMelon · 07/02/2025 12:07

Yes but we know him and he has forms to be lazy. You don't know him. He even made fun of the application saying it's for freebie. You want him to get it?

I used to work with disabled people. Some do this because they are embarrassed about being eligible for benefits. It’s a coping mechanism - a way of saving face in front of friends and family.

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:14

JaneBoleynViscountessRochford · 07/02/2025 11:37

Thanks for admitting that you were wrong then.

I stand by my belief that most people don’t actually give a shit about strangers on the internet and their long list of medical complaints.

Ok, you continue to speak for 'most people' then. Goodbye.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:17

TigerRag · 07/02/2025 12:53

Funny how you haven't mentioned the 70% winning at tribune or the millions in unclaimed benefits?

Why would I mention these figures? They aren't related to fraud.

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:20

TigerRag · 07/02/2025 12:53

Funny how you haven't mentioned the 70% winning at tribune or the millions in unclaimed benefits?

They never do, I wonder why that is🤔

OriginalUsername2 · 07/02/2025 13:20

TizerorFizz · 06/02/2025 17:01

I think there are people who want as much as they can get from the state. There’s quite a lot available if you know where to look. What this doesn’t do is promote growth so it’s not sustainable. The government is grappling with this right now. Some people do need to accept they can work.

This is bollox.

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:25

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:17

Why would I mention these figures? They aren't related to fraud.

It should be part of the conversation though, because if people are concerned about the level of fraud, and how much that is costing the taxpayer, then they should be equally up in arms about the fact that so many assessments, which costs money to do, are not being done correctly, and are being challenged, and overturned at tribunal, which is costing the taxpayer, again, and again.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:27

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 12:51

It’s also much, much more difficult to actually be awarded disability benefits.

Not necessarily. You still need to provide evidence to claim housing benefit and it would be almost impossible for someone like me (who isn't eligible for HB) to get the required documentation to make a successful claim.

I would however be able to submit a fraudulent claim for disability benefits with the required medical 'evidence' if I wanted to. I obviously wouldn't be able to claim for any condition I fancied, but there are a few conditions that I know that I could work the system to claim for. It would require a bit of effort getting the GP appointments etc to 'verify' my claim but it certainly wouldn't be impossible.

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 13:31

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:27

Not necessarily. You still need to provide evidence to claim housing benefit and it would be almost impossible for someone like me (who isn't eligible for HB) to get the required documentation to make a successful claim.

I would however be able to submit a fraudulent claim for disability benefits with the required medical 'evidence' if I wanted to. I obviously wouldn't be able to claim for any condition I fancied, but there are a few conditions that I know that I could work the system to claim for. It would require a bit of effort getting the GP appointments etc to 'verify' my claim but it certainly wouldn't be impossible.

Ok. You believe that. And maybe you could share the advice of how you’d go about it with the many eligible claimants that are turned down because it seems you have the answer.

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:35

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 13:31

Ok. You believe that. And maybe you could share the advice of how you’d go about it with the many eligible claimants that are turned down because it seems you have the answer.

And the fact that a person has to have been suffering from xyz for at least 3 months before applying, and be expected to have the same issue for a further nine months. I am wondering what she would be telling her GP in order to provide all of this evidence.

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:38

LadyKenya · 07/02/2025 13:25

It should be part of the conversation though, because if people are concerned about the level of fraud, and how much that is costing the taxpayer, then they should be equally up in arms about the fact that so many assessments, which costs money to do, are not being done correctly, and are being challenged, and overturned at tribunal, which is costing the taxpayer, again, and again.

No, this is a completely different point and in no way deflects from the fact that the 0.4% figure is almost certainly inaccurate and that fraud is a huge problem. Not only does it cost the taxpayer a lot of money but it also undermines the system and is a huge cause of the resentment and anger that people feel towards benefit claimants. This doesn't serve anybody other than the fraudsters who merrily hide amongst the genuine claimants and effectively use the genuine claimants as human shields to hide their wrong doing.

Why on earth wouldn't you want fraudulent claims acknowledged and rooted out?

Julen7 · 07/02/2025 13:42

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:38

No, this is a completely different point and in no way deflects from the fact that the 0.4% figure is almost certainly inaccurate and that fraud is a huge problem. Not only does it cost the taxpayer a lot of money but it also undermines the system and is a huge cause of the resentment and anger that people feel towards benefit claimants. This doesn't serve anybody other than the fraudsters who merrily hide amongst the genuine claimants and effectively use the genuine claimants as human shields to hide their wrong doing.

Why on earth wouldn't you want fraudulent claims acknowledged and rooted out?

According to some posters on here there are no fraudsters

Bumpitybumper · 07/02/2025 13:42

HÆLTHEPAIN · 07/02/2025 13:31

Ok. You believe that. And maybe you could share the advice of how you’d go about it with the many eligible claimants that are turned down because it seems you have the answer.

For a condition like anxiety then this would be relatively easy to do. There are countless websites online and YouTube videos you can access to tell you the evidence that you need and how to ensure you have it all documented properly. Obviously I wouldn't submit a claim immediately without an appropriate body of evidence to support the claim. I would also ensure the form was filled in properly.

I may well get rejected initially (like lots of people do) but my odds at appeal would be very good.

A question back to you as you seem so sceptical about my claim. What evidence do you think a genuine sufferer of anxiety could provide that someone that cynically wanted to exploit the system couldn't also provide?