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Ableism on mumsnet

174 replies

Kitten1982 · 05/02/2025 10:36

This was my reply on another post but I wanted to share it in its own thread because I’m so shocked and saddened by the comments I see about disability and disability benefits on here. I’ve been so distressed by some of them, I ended up in tears yesterday. The way some mumsnetters talk about disabled people is not only disgusting, it’s downright dangerous and you’re allowing governments to pave the way to leave more of us dead, just like many of us died due to Tory austerity.

i know there’s a lot of older people on here who might have more conservative views and I know there’s a lot of middle class people on here who don’t know what it’s like to rely on such a pittance, and don’t spare a second to think about how little money it is- nor ask themselves why we’d choose to live on too little money, constantly with the precarity of the whims of assessors (who have targets) and governments, rather than work. I have a first class degree and plenty of relative experience to get a job. I was meant to be moving onto my PhD when I developed even more conditions.

This is a plea from the bottom of my heart and the many vulnerable people I campaign with feel unanimously the same. You’re making suffering people suffer more. Think about that.

Anyway, here’s the reply I sent, please read it and inform yourselves before commenting on fake disabled people defrauding the state, or real disabled people not bothering to work…

TBC, that group of people is so small that it’s offensive when people raise it. The UK fraud rate for disability benefits is 0.2%. It’s not worth mentioning and it muddies the water and it allows people to diagnose people as frauds by eye. Like those people who see someone stand up from their wheelchair and assume they’re a fraud because they think all wheelchair users are paralysed. Or people whose disabilities aren’t visible having to deal with friends and family saying stuff like you did x, so you must be able to do y/ you did x yesterday so you can do it today. People who make those examples against chronically ill people aren’t medically qualified and if they were, they’re not the ones who performed their medical history, examination and tests.

if it was another subject, a lot of people would be more careful about allowing sweeping statements to be made about an entire population, based on the actions of less than than half of a half of a percentage point. It’s horribly unfair and it means that disabled people like me and my disabled DC are looked at with suspicion by the general public.

i wrote something a few years back- it was published for scope and was a guest post for Mumsnet. It was called, ‘I’m tired of having to perform my disability.’ And so many people agreed with the article because they experienced the same feelings as me about being paranoid about societal judgements. So a lot of us ending up vocalising our pain when we’d otherwise be silent in it (which makes it easier to cope with) or having to transfer out of my wheelchair in a way society expects and accepts, rather than the way which is comfortable for me. It’s not fair that 0.2% of people who’ve decided to pretend our disabilities are having such an awful impact on the 99.8% who are genuine, not to mention all the genuine people who are wrongly turned down and have to appeal and put in for tribunals, and go through a hell of a lot of work to generate the necessary evidence.

if I only had one of my conditions (uncontrolled epilepsy with cluster seizures- which require emergency meds, but can also make me blind, paralysed, psychotic, incontinent, and wander off in my wheelchair), I would still need to claim disability benefits. But without my other conditions, I would seem just like anyone else between seizures, even though I have to have someone with me who’s trained to use my life saving medication at all times, it wouldn’t impact my other functions outside of the above. And when I am experiencing the above problems, my kids try to keep me inside the house (when I’m trying to run away in fear because the seizures have that impact on me afterwards) and I often just doze in bed, sometimes for a couple of days. I am often left with horrible vomiting and migraines. How would someone know what I look like when I’m very unwell when I’m either in bed or in hospital when it happens? Friends visit me in hospital, but only when I’m on the mend. They’ve seen seizures but only a couple have seen the clusters, and only one has seen my debilitating projectile vomiting condition (cvs- look it up. It goes beyond vomiting and is debilitating) because I don’t want to see people when I feel so unwell. The only reason the one friend who’s seen it has seen it is because she came to see me in hospital sans warning so I was still too ill to want visitors when she came in. So please, everyone, stop judging people as fakers and fit and we’ll because you really don’t have a clue.

i know I'm going to die young because of my health conditions (I’m 42 now and in 6 years alone I’ve been in trauma/ resus 10 times and have to be hospitalised several times a year. I lost a friend af the age of 34 to 2 of the same conditions as me, and another at 45), and I am so scared about whether my sons will be able to figure out the forms after I’m gone. Basically, I’m trying to create a guide for my eldest for how to fill in the forms for each of his brothers (he also has bipolar himself but doesn’t claim anything for it).

Can those (by no means do I only refer to the person I’m quoting but others on this thread) please actually do some research, but about fraudulence with disability benefits, but also relapsing and remitting conditions? In adding suspicions and repeating cliches which don’t apply to many, many disabilities, you’re allowing govts to effectively commit eugenics by starving us to death. Please stop, I beg you all.

As a final note: people rarely get disability benefits for low level mental illness, as otherwise claimed by the govt. My 22yo suffers from bipolar, CPTSD, and very severe social anxiety, as well as inheriting cvs, but he won’t claim, tries his hardest to get in to college for his course, and since he lost his last job for having to be taken into A&E due to throwing up blood whilst still on probation in the job, he’s worked his arse off to find other work (side note: if anyone has something in southern central Hampshire, please message. He’s training as a mechanic but he’s worked in restaurants, helped me to run my former business on the admin side, and he’s carer to 3 people, so he’s very responsible.). I have been disabled for 42 years and only gave up my business a year ago, despite having 12 conditions during the total time I ran this particular business, and other people to whom I have to be a carer- albeit through advice, admin and verbal help.

Just please stop assuming relapsing and remitting conditions are fake or not as bad as the sufferer says; stop saying mental illness can be overcome- some people can, others can’t, it’s not a personal failing; stop assuming your eyes can tell you someone’s whole health experience; and stop assuming disability benefits are too generous (actually some of the lowest in Europe vs cost of living), or that it’s easy to get disability benefits for “scroungers” because they’re hard enough for genuinely disabled people to claim.

Disabled people need the vocal public support of others right now because if they ever do manage to get the green paper through, we could lose PIP to an insufficient catalogue,, and the WCA will turn away more people like me (people with multiple complex conditions). Disabled people are in for having to survive a political storm when all we’ve done to deserve wicked treatment is being disabled. Life’s hard enough as a disabled person when society doesn’t try to tear you down and the govt isn’t trying to force you into starvation. Please be kinder.

OP posts:
SlapTheMelon · 06/02/2025 12:31

Kitten1982 · 06/02/2025 11:49

I’m middle aged. My son is 22 the day after tomorrow. My younger in laws are both grandparents. I’’m not being ageist by stating the actual real and long running statistic that people in my age group and older tend to be more conservative. It’s an actual fact. You can’t defend one form of bigotry by trying to create a pretend one about something else. Instead of defending the bigotry at all, why not actually engage about what I said, why it’s so prevalent here and how that impacts people? You took the cowards’ way instead. For shame.

Having conservative values is being a bigot now, is it? 🙄

Most people want truly disabled people like you supported. However, what Labour and the Tories target are people who can work but refuse to. My BIL wanted to apply for PIP 3 years ago because he wanted a mobility car and his fiance supported it because that means she'd drive the car while he could still use his shitty one himself. Knowing people like this which many of us do, is what makes people raise their eyebrows about those who take, take, take as much as they can because it's possible and it's there to take.

I find it very hard to agree with you when your view of the world is SJW = good, the others = Bad.

GoldVermillion · 06/02/2025 12:31

I have a disabled adult child. We got LWCRA for a year but the nature of their disability means they don't buy anything so their claim was closed as they got too much money. However one of the problems I see is there is no way to suspend benefits for disabled people to have a go at working and see what they can manage. If you aren't sure if you can work, say, 3 days with your chronic condition but would like to try, there's no mechanism. You have to reapply for benefits and reapply for LWCRA and reproduce all the medical information and get another 3 months sick notes from your GP. It means it barely seems worth giving work a go. That needs to change.

Maverickess · 06/02/2025 12:35

Goldfsh · 05/02/2025 14:41

I live with an acquired disability and also work (part-time and self-employed as I'm unable to do employed work any more).

Our society is very ableist, and racist, and our media just encourages this. Mumsnet just reflects the wider society. Expecting things to be different is odd: why should women who are mothers be less ableist that the rest of society?

And there IS also a debate to be had about disability benefits. We are one of the worst countries in terms of productivity at work and disability claims. It's extraordinary and not sustainable. Lots of things need to change to approach this - including the world of work. And in the course of that debate, lots of offensive things will be said.

People will need to keep educating people, unfortunately, and not everything can be policed, or banned.

And there IS also a debate to be had about disability benefits. We are one of the worst countries in terms of productivity at work and disability claims. It's extraordinary and not sustainable. Lots of things need to change to approach this - including the world of work. And in the course of that debate, lots of offensive things will be said.

Problem is with the world of work and productivity is that as a society, we're just not willing to be inclusive if it affects us in any way an individual.

You can make laws ensuring that employers are inclusive, but when people using the services don't like it, complain about 'poor service' because the autistic shop assistant didn't make eye contact, or the person with cognitive issues was a bit slow in the customers expectations, or the person with anxiety didn't come across as 'professional' enough - what then? Why aren't we working towards dealing with that attitude rather than just telling disabled people to get jobs and get on with it?
People aren't going to stop having the issues that come with disabilities because they're told to, either as a society we accept and foster inclusivity, or we accept the concequences of not doing so.

Society seems to want it both ways, disabled people off benefits and working, but just not in places where it might affect them as an individual.

LadyKenya · 06/02/2025 12:38

SlapTheMelon · 06/02/2025 12:31

Having conservative values is being a bigot now, is it? 🙄

Most people want truly disabled people like you supported. However, what Labour and the Tories target are people who can work but refuse to. My BIL wanted to apply for PIP 3 years ago because he wanted a mobility car and his fiance supported it because that means she'd drive the car while he could still use his shitty one himself. Knowing people like this which many of us do, is what makes people raise their eyebrows about those who take, take, take as much as they can because it's possible and it's there to take.

I find it very hard to agree with you when your view of the world is SJW = good, the others = Bad.

Are you honestly suggesting that your BIL could get the highest rate of mobility for PIP, just because he fancied a car? I don't believe it works quite like that. He would need a lot of medical evidence for a start.

SlapTheMelon · 06/02/2025 13:15

LadyKenya · 06/02/2025 12:38

Are you honestly suggesting that your BIL could get the highest rate of mobility for PIP, just because he fancied a car? I don't believe it works quite like that. He would need a lot of medical evidence for a start.

I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just saying he tried.

LadyKenya · 06/02/2025 13:34

SlapTheMelon · 06/02/2025 13:15

I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just saying he tried.

Ok, there is nothing to stop him trying, but if he was not eligible for higher rate mobility, he would not get it, whether he wanted it, or not.

Lyn348 · 06/02/2025 13:37

Hi OP, on a completely different tack are you sure that you eldest isn't also on the spectrum? If his sibling has ASD and ADHD and he has crippling social anxiety himself then that's what I'd be wondering as it tends to run in families. Bipolar is frequently misdiagnosed but also frequently comorbid with ASD so either could be the case.
I'm not going to get into the disability benefit thing but I have one with ASD and I am so grateful he is currently working in something he loves so I really hope your son finds a job he's happy in soon. He sounds like a really hard worker.

Gilead · 06/02/2025 13:55

It’s not just the fact that many of us have to live in penury, but e
we also pay a premium on products that are essential for our daily functioning life.
Look up Disability Tax.

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 06/02/2025 14:35

Goldfsh · 05/02/2025 14:41

I live with an acquired disability and also work (part-time and self-employed as I'm unable to do employed work any more).

Our society is very ableist, and racist, and our media just encourages this. Mumsnet just reflects the wider society. Expecting things to be different is odd: why should women who are mothers be less ableist that the rest of society?

And there IS also a debate to be had about disability benefits. We are one of the worst countries in terms of productivity at work and disability claims. It's extraordinary and not sustainable. Lots of things need to change to approach this - including the world of work. And in the course of that debate, lots of offensive things will be said.

People will need to keep educating people, unfortunately, and not everything can be policed, or banned.

About your last sentence.

I'd like to see a sort of Bill of Rights where it's stated that people have the right to be treated with respect and without prejudice regardless of sex, race, age (old or young), disability or on any other grounds.

Turning around from banning all sorts to saying "fairness and (genuine) equality is the goal, if you are treated less than this then you have grounds for a case, because everyone should be treated fairly".

Cattreesea · 06/02/2025 14:35

OP too many people in this country just blindly believe that the right wing media and various governments tell them.

Immigrants (including the legal ones), disabled people, single mums, benefit recipients, people with mental health issues and other long term health conditions...

These categories have been scapegoated for decades now and dehumanised.

The agenda is to describe them as 'scroungers' whose main activity is to misuse 'tax-payers money' to live a life of luxury.

While the reality is that the UK has some of the lowest benefits levels in Europe and disability payments such as PIP are incredible difficult to qualify for and has zero rates of fraud according to the DWP itself.

It is actually criminal and shocking that a Labour government is just happy to pick up the Tories' rhetoric and continue with the same nonsense and to seem eager to cause more disabled people to become destitute and even more unwell than they already are. You would think they just want disabled to go away and die...

MaryPopcorn · 06/02/2025 14:42

If people are concerned about Ableism then they might want to look at the latest news about the Assisted Dying Bill.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/02/05/assisted-dying-bill-doctors-tougher-rules-coercion-fears/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/feb/05/assisted-dying-bill-amendment-requires-doctors-raise-all-other-options-first

IncaDove · 06/02/2025 14:44

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 06/02/2025 14:35

About your last sentence.

I'd like to see a sort of Bill of Rights where it's stated that people have the right to be treated with respect and without prejudice regardless of sex, race, age (old or young), disability or on any other grounds.

Turning around from banning all sorts to saying "fairness and (genuine) equality is the goal, if you are treated less than this then you have grounds for a case, because everyone should be treated fairly".

It already exists. It's called The Equality Act

BIWI · 06/02/2025 15:58

Kitten1982 · 06/02/2025 11:49

I’m middle aged. My son is 22 the day after tomorrow. My younger in laws are both grandparents. I’’m not being ageist by stating the actual real and long running statistic that people in my age group and older tend to be more conservative. It’s an actual fact. You can’t defend one form of bigotry by trying to create a pretend one about something else. Instead of defending the bigotry at all, why not actually engage about what I said, why it’s so prevalent here and how that impacts people? You took the cowards’ way instead. For shame.

I'm not trying to defend any kind of bigotry, and I'm bemused as to why you would think that.

Some older people might be conservative, some of us definitely are not. Including me. I'm 65 now and despise any form of 'ism', including ableism.

And by posting on your thread, I am engaging with you! No idea why you would think that what I've said is cowardice.

Strange perspective.

HÆLTHEPAIN · 06/02/2025 16:21

I’m absolutely petrified of the potential changes. I have ME/CFS and Fibro and currently receive some PIP and ESA (support group). I haven’t had medical help since being discharged from the CFS clinic years ago, because there is just nothing left they can offer. I’m in pain a lot because I can’t tolerate strong painkillers. I literally live my life mostly from my sofa or bed. I do have some days when I look like I ‘normal’, functioning member of society. Sometimes I can even have a few of those days close together.

What I can’t do is go to work because any cognitive or physical work will leave me exhausted beyond belief. And/or in pain. And it can be unpredictable as to when that will happen, which isn’t conducive to being gainfully employed.

I had to leave work 8 years ago after working since I was 13 - and not being able to work now is utterly soul destroying.

But who will believe me when I have no medical evidence to back it all up because I have an illness that no one can currently do any more for.

Normallynumb · 06/02/2025 16:40

Op I applaud you and second every word

LadyKenya · 06/02/2025 16:45

HÆLTHEPAIN · 06/02/2025 16:21

I’m absolutely petrified of the potential changes. I have ME/CFS and Fibro and currently receive some PIP and ESA (support group). I haven’t had medical help since being discharged from the CFS clinic years ago, because there is just nothing left they can offer. I’m in pain a lot because I can’t tolerate strong painkillers. I literally live my life mostly from my sofa or bed. I do have some days when I look like I ‘normal’, functioning member of society. Sometimes I can even have a few of those days close together.

What I can’t do is go to work because any cognitive or physical work will leave me exhausted beyond belief. And/or in pain. And it can be unpredictable as to when that will happen, which isn’t conducive to being gainfully employed.

I had to leave work 8 years ago after working since I was 13 - and not being able to work now is utterly soul destroying.

But who will believe me when I have no medical evidence to back it all up because I have an illness that no one can currently do any more for.

You will have medical evidence, from your GP records. Even if you cannot be given any more help, you should still inform them of any ongoing issues relating to your conditions.

TigerRag · 06/02/2025 16:57

LadyKenya · 06/02/2025 16:45

You will have medical evidence, from your GP records. Even if you cannot be given any more help, you should still inform them of any ongoing issues relating to your conditions.

Many of us have nothing up to date as there's nothing that can be done. I'm only under a consultant because no one can decide what my diagnosis is

TizerorFizz · 06/02/2025 17:01

I think there are people who want as much as they can get from the state. There’s quite a lot available if you know where to look. What this doesn’t do is promote growth so it’s not sustainable. The government is grappling with this right now. Some people do need to accept they can work.

LadyKenya · 06/02/2025 17:02

TigerRag · 06/02/2025 16:57

Many of us have nothing up to date as there's nothing that can be done. I'm only under a consultant because no one can decide what my diagnosis is

Yes, I guess it is a problem for a lot of people. I suggested keeping the GP informed of any ongoing issues, so that they are able to keep a record, and who knows what future procedures, medications etc, that may come about, that may help some people in the future, if not at the present time.

TigerRag · 06/02/2025 17:17

"Or people whose disabilities aren’t visible having to deal with friends and family saying stuff like you did x, so you must be able to do y/ you did x yesterday so you can do it today."

I had a "friend " who claimed to have the same diagnosis as me. She couldn't understand why I managed yesterday but not today. It's well documented that it varies a lot. I've done eye tests where I've been borderline for driving, repeated it next week and struggled to read 3 lines. (You need to read a minimum of 6 I seem to remember)

CantStopBuyingSeeds · 06/02/2025 18:12

Fellow disabled Mumsnetter. The ableism on here is appalling. MNHQ do f all about it though, they just don't care! I cannot tell you the volume of posts I've reported and typed 'ableist' in the details section. Often I add context and explain how I, as a disabled person, find the post disabled yet every single time the response I get is "We're taking a look at this now" which is MNHQ speak for "sorry, not deleting it"
They just don't care

LadyKenya · 06/02/2025 18:21

TizerorFizz · 06/02/2025 17:01

I think there are people who want as much as they can get from the state. There’s quite a lot available if you know where to look. What this doesn’t do is promote growth so it’s not sustainable. The government is grappling with this right now. Some people do need to accept they can work.

As a lot of posters with disabilities have said on these threads, where are all of these jobs, where the employers will be flexible, and understanding of the fact that Carina's disability means that one day she can have enough energy to come into the office, or whatever work place, but she may not be able to make it through the whole day, or may have multiple hospital appointments in any given month, or may need to rest for the next couple of days, due to pushing herself to hard, etc...There are so many obstacles to employment in the first place, for a lot of people with disabilities, and some people will always be too ill to work, for a myriad of reasons.

MidnightMeltdown · 06/02/2025 18:26

I think it's just because it's been in the news a lot recently that the current bill for disabilities is unsustainable. It's not just the right wing press, even the labour government are saying it. Tough decisions will need to be made and I'm just glad that I'm not the one having to make them.

Ableism isn't the same as the other 'isms' because disability is something that we all have to pay for, and therefore, everybody has vested interest to some extent, and people will differ in their opinions.

It's also complicated by the fact that 'disability' covers an enormous range of different conditions.

If reading the comments upsets you, I would just avoid those threads.

CantStopBuyingSeeds · 06/02/2025 18:28

HÆLTHEPAIN · 06/02/2025 16:21

I’m absolutely petrified of the potential changes. I have ME/CFS and Fibro and currently receive some PIP and ESA (support group). I haven’t had medical help since being discharged from the CFS clinic years ago, because there is just nothing left they can offer. I’m in pain a lot because I can’t tolerate strong painkillers. I literally live my life mostly from my sofa or bed. I do have some days when I look like I ‘normal’, functioning member of society. Sometimes I can even have a few of those days close together.

What I can’t do is go to work because any cognitive or physical work will leave me exhausted beyond belief. And/or in pain. And it can be unpredictable as to when that will happen, which isn’t conducive to being gainfully employed.

I had to leave work 8 years ago after working since I was 13 - and not being able to work now is utterly soul destroying.

But who will believe me when I have no medical evidence to back it all up because I have an illness that no one can currently do any more for.

Exactly the same as you. CFS clinic diagnosed me in 2003 and waved me goodbye. I'm on prescription morphine patches which last 4 days and are wonderful and I have a Motability car from my PIP. I'm terrified of what will happen as some days I can’t even keep my eyes open for more than 5 mins. On such days I can’t even get my daughter to school without help, it's awful. Yet other days I can maybe nip to the shop (which is about my limit, I can’t do more than that even on my best days).

Gilead · 06/02/2025 19:03

TizerorFizz · 06/02/2025 17:01

I think there are people who want as much as they can get from the state. There’s quite a lot available if you know where to look. What this doesn’t do is promote growth so it’s not sustainable. The government is grappling with this right now. Some people do need to accept they can work.

It was confirmed in Parliament last week that PiP fraud is 0.02% it’s a drop in the ocean and your attitude that there are people
that want all they can get promulgates the myth that we’re all scroungers.