I can't cope with depressed brother being so reliant on me. Feel like a bitch for saying that.

[inigomontoyahwillcox]

I'm so sorry - this going to be so long - but I need to get this out. I'm up with this awful cough/chest infection which makes it impossible to lie down and sleep. Been ill since last Tuesday. Have had virtually no sleep since then. Pretty sure a lot of you will think I'm a heartless cow, but I'm getting to my wits end.

Context. My brother (quite significantly older than me) has suffered from depression since he was a teen. He has been on antidepressants since then, except for a couple of occasions when he's taken himself off them for one reason or another, which have ended up in disaster. He lives about 2.5 hours away from me.

For some years now he has been spending more and more time at my house with my DH, DD and I. He lives alone and came to stay with us during lock down, and has often come to stay with us, sometimes for weeks, off and on since then when he's feeling low or had a crappy couple of weeks (e.g. work stress). I've always said to him of course he can come, how can I not, but he's often then stayed and stayed, prolonging his stay without discussing it with me - just declaring he's not going to go home for another week at the end of his planned stay.

He has a fantastic job in the civil service, but has had lot and lots of absences for various ailments over the past couple of years and they are understandably getting serious about his attendance. He seems to think this is very unfair and how they just don't understand. I've tried gently - but seriously - to explain that you can indeed be dismissed for repeated or lengthy absences.

In May this year he started getting some odd physical symptoms - balance issues/vertigo mainly (other very vague things like feeling cold, and out of it) - I rushed down there to him when this initially happened as he took himself to hospital thinking he was having a stroke. Ultimately anything serious was ruled out and after taking him to a few appointments for some further checks I drove him back to mine to stay. He decided that these symptoms were due to his antidepressant (that he'd been on for 15 years), so agreed with his GP to reduce his dose to an incredibly small one (questionable that it was even therapeutic anymore - it was 1/4 of the starting dose, he had been on double the starting dose for 15 years). His physical symptoms did clear up eventually - he put this down to this reduction in his antidepressants - I wasn't so convinced. I also voiced my concern that he was now effectively not on antidepressants and we all know how that had ended up in the past and that he needed to push to try another antidepressant if he didn't want to go back to his old one.

He eventually went back home and to work, and was there for a few months until he started experiencing stomach issues, now diagnosed as IBS (which I know is not fun - I've had it for years myself) and yet again took himself off work. He was working with his GP and a dietician and put on the FODMAP diet which he's still on. Again, he came to ours for a few weeks. His work were getting very ancy by this time and he started to do some hours remotely from ours as he had no choice. Eventually he went home again, he was home for a week only then for his depression to increase so I told him to get an emergency appointment with his GP who told him to double his dose last week. Well all hell broke loose (assuming side effects of increasing the dose). I've been ill for a couple of months now with all these bloody relentless viruses (also been very anemic for a lot longer and recently had a couple of infusions and currently undergoing tests to find out why - so you can imagine how rough I've been feeling), but last Tuesday I came down with proper flu (raging temp etc.) and have been in bed since and have been mainly off work (doing work when needed from bed). I never take time off work, honestly have to be at deaths door - have subsequently developed a chest infection and am on antibiotics. Got a call from my brother at 5:30am on Wednesday with him feeling awful saying I needed to drive down and collect him, after explaining I couldn't as I was ill asked to speak to DH and asked him to go. I said to DH that he couldn't, he had work plus he was helping me out with a work event in the evening which I obviously couldn't attend any more but he still needed to arrange some stuff and be there for a short while. I put my foot down and said he had to either drive, get the train or wait until we could drive to him and if he was in crisis to call his local crisis team immediately. He eventually said he would drive as he couldn't fit all the stuff he wanted to bring in a backpack so the train was out (so he'd get obviously decided at that point he was coming for a while).

Since he's been with us he has been waking me up every morning at silly-o'clock (e.g. 5-6), as he's been experiencing massive anxiety. I've been woken up three times now to him standing in our bedroom crying and saying he can't cope. I am getting about 2 hours of sleep per night due to this chest infection anyway, and have usually only just dropped off when he's waking me up. At this rate I'm never going to get better. DH had to stop him coming into our bedroom the other day when I had eventually managed to doze off. Anyway, called the local out of hours crisis team yesterday morning and sat with him whilst he spoke to them, they're seeing him this morning and have told him to register as a temporary patient at my local GP and they are hopefully going to make a plan going forward - e.g. moving to a new antidepressant (I hope). On the phone he said to them he was going to stay with me indefinitely (no discussion with me) and can't see himself doing his job for some months.

In the past when he's had a crisis like this he's decamped to our parents who look after him for months whilst he recovers and he finds a new job - but he's decided that he finds it too stressful to stay with them (they're getting on now as well). I can see what is going to happen. He is going to loose his job, loose his rented flat as a result and have nowhere to live but here with us. So, unemployed, living with us indefinitely. And what choice do I have?

It's really stressful when he stays with us - just the whole dynamic/routine of the household goes out the window. He has always been single and as a result his life revolves around himself, he spreads himself and his things around the house, and changes/moves/breaks thing (little things, but they all add up) and gets argumentative when I ask him not to do something. My home just doesn't feel like my home anymore; I can't spend evenings chilling out lying on the sofa in front of the telly with DH, as we often do, he's often lying on the sofa watching TV himself, he smokes although takes himself outside but his clothes smell of smoke. He is in our small spare room (well, he's on the sofa tonight for some reason) which we had just recently decked out as DD's study as her bedroom isn't really big enough for a desk; she's finishing her mocks tomorrow and has her GCSEs in May - she has ADHD and it's been incredibly challenging for her academically, but we'd really turned a corner recently and she's determined to get into 6th form, I'm so worried all of this is going to upheave her, stress her out and affect her performance; she's been so proud of her achievements recently and I think if she does badly now what little confidence she'd recently gained will disappear.

I am pretty sure a straw will break the camel's back and I will end up loosing it with him at some point, or just getting incredibly stressed and ill (stress usually manifests itself physically with me as I just try to ignore it and push on through - I've had my own mental health battles). But how can I effectively abandon my depressed brother? I love him dearly, and want him to be well, but he's come to rely on me so heavily that it's becoming too much. He's really not helped himself; taking so much time off work for spurious reasons and now he really needs the time off they are challenging him and his job is in jeopardy; him not taking my advice about not going cold turkey on the antidepressants without a plan to start a new one; just the assumption that we can constantly put our lives on hold. DH is being incredibly understanding - but I can even see him getting frustrated by my brother over the past few months. DH also had a huge mental breakdown last year and attempted suicide twice, he's only just got back on some sort of even keel about 6 months ago but is still recovering. Jesus, what if HE ends up breaking down again and then I've got 2 men in crisis to look after?! I've got my own full time stressful job to do as well, plus a neurodivergent daughter to keep on track. I'm terrified! I honestly don't know what to do for the best. He has very good friends but they don't live in the same city as him, but other than them and my parents, we're all he has.

What the fuck do I do?

I'm still thinking about how best to communicate with her how she is important and we do not tolerate being abused or sidelined below others needs

Communication is not just words and conversations, she will learn through your modelling. Keep showing her how to make and stick to boundaries.

DD expressed a desire to see them again
Re your parents, gently op as I know you're going through it, but I think this could be up for reviewing. Your DD wasn't responsible for this decision, you made that decision for her her and now that you and your DD have more information about the men in the family this night be an excellent situation to model good boundary setting. I'm not saying NC, I just mean to re-evaluate your contact level with your father in view of everything that has happened recently.

You're 100% right - I need to model the behaviour to DD.

I would be concerned about continuing a 'normal' relationship with your dad, given his history of poor parental behaviour (to put it mildly) and his clear intention to make your brother your responsibility. Plus now the potential for him to mistreat your daughter the way he did you. I would be stepping way, way back if not dropping contact altogether. Do for your mum what you'd do for any DA victim among your friends/family - make it clear you'll always be there for her, and if she asks for helps you'll give it, but not at the cost of sacrificing yourself or pretending that the way your dad is is fine.

You're doing so well. Your daughter is lucky to have you.

I think a good action to model would be to get some legal protection in place so that if he turns up on the doorstep some day trying to get in, your DD knows her very first step is to call the police. Think how frightening for a teenager to read that a grown man has thoughts of strangling her… She may well minimise the impact to you, but what is going through her head when she’s on her own or lying in bed at night trying not to think about it. She will need counselling!

In all honesty - I rarely see them, they don't come to see me and I don't go to see them. I was actually getting quite frustrated recently as they kept promising to come see me (for years now) and didn't (I've got a thread on it on MN somewhere) - every time I planned to go see them they would say no, were planning to come see you then, but then when it came to the crunch they wouldn't - usually because my mum would put some form of spanner in the works. She told me on the phone a couple of days ago that she just can't face travelling with my dad any more, which explains why they've not come down, and she's been sabotaging the visits. But it makes me so sad that she's on her own with him. She's just as much as a victim as I am, but she didn't have the support and empowerment to recognise it and take action against it that I now do.

Do for your mum what you'd do for any DA victim among your friends/family - make it clear you'll always be there for her, and if she asks for helps you'll give it,

OP, that means help to leave, to get injuries treated, to report incidents, to get in touch with women's charities. Not help to maintain the status quo by listening to endless moaning without any intent of her taking action or nursing her repeatedly only to see her go back to him upon recovery, that's just more enabling.

I get what you're saying @thewrongsister, but it's one thing taking a step back from a friend who is perpetuating the status quo - who you've tried to help and who is just not taking your advice, so you take a step back and disassociate (and thus stop enabling) - and doing the same with your mum.

But your DM is not as nice as you believe - she has thrown you under the bus to ensure her own comfort since you were a little girl. She allowed her husband to inflict physical and emotional violence on you as a young child - she stood back and did nothing.

When your own DD was the recipient of abuse from your DF - your appropriate gut reaction was to protect her and take her out of there.

Why didnt your DM do that? She is a faciliator of DV against children.

Totally OP. Takes a while longer to disengage from family. The alternative though is that your own health and family life continues to suffer as you constantly give to those who only ever take and abuse you while they're doing it.

There's a reason you're so ill and DH had a breakdown. You can't pour from an empty cup. Every time your cup gets one drop in it, you pour it straight out it someone else, you've even scraped the pattern off the inside in your attempts to get some more out of it and now it's cracked and broken. Got to glue yourself back together and recover before you can think about giving to someone else (except DD because she's your dependent for another few years and the one person you sometimes have to sacrifice yourself a little for).

Think of it this way - if you don't take time away from toxicity to heal, you won't be able to parent DD to the best of your ability. Your mum's made her bed, she can walk out the door or she can choose to lie in it, but you needn't choose to climb in with her.

Everything you (and everyone) does is a choice and has consequences for those around them. You support DM, you take from DD, because you've nothing left to give and you can't sacrifice the last scrap of yourself twice over, there's only one of you.

I know it doesn't feel like it, that's the FOG, but your life is totally within your control. Your nuclear family is physically broken, literally sick and dying, but you can still heal with time if you choose to, because you're emotionally still all together in this and working as a unit. Or you can carry on as you are, trying to pour from an empty cup, and stay sickly.

@pooperscoops in the DM’s defence, there was a lot less knowledge about abuse and coercive control 40 odd years ago, and fewer helplines and other options to help women get away, in particular if they didn’t work and had no access to finances.

Not an excuse but a partial explanation.

Your mum can be viewed as a victim of your dad, op, but she must surely bear some responsibility for how you were treated as a child.

Just as you bear some of the responsibility for how your daughter is (allowed to be) treated by her uncle.

You asked, how can I show my dd that her safety is my priority...I'd say that merely barring your dB from the house is not enough. It's also in the way you talk about him.

I said upthread that he fantasised about strangling her and you said no, he said he was afraid he'd strangle her and there's a difference. From your dd's perspective that will look like excusing or minimising his behaviour. Because the only difference is in the well chosen word-mincing he's done. I think he chooses his words carefully, but at the end of the day, he's just a common or garden would-be abusive uncle.

I also think you minimise, in your mind, the impact of having an abusive and mentally ill man in her home for weeks/months, and then even when he's gone, spending all your mental energy thinking/talking about him and his whereabouts, his welfare, his future, etc.

I think facing that fact must be hard, but apologising to your daughter for that would be powerful.

Exactly. She is institutionalised/suffering from Stockholm syndrome. I've suffered the effects of this too - i.e. the impact of being raised by a mother who was incapable of escape, but how much of that was her fault in the context of not living in a society which recognised abuse and supporter women escaping it. That is not to say I must prioritise her above myself and DD, but maybe just an explanation of how hard it is to extricate myself from it.

And let’s not forget the influence and support of MN (other forums are available) to every poster on a relationship board who tentatively says “DH did this to me/the DCs, he says I drove him to it, is it my fault?” who received a resounding “no, honey, it isn’t, get yourself out, and here’s some advice on how”

Words are cheap.

Modelling to your daughter that you will no longer accept the abuse of your father or brother is what is important.

Modelling to her that a woman can realise even at your age that they have been abused and walked away, is a great thing.

We can decide to protect ourselves at any age.

My father was a bully my whole life and my mother allowed it.
I went NC and they didn't meet my children.
At one point my children asked about them and I explained that they were not kind people and that as their mummy that loved them, I didn't want them to be around them.
They accepted it and moved on.
I didn't want them near my precious children.
I have never regretted it.
They are now dead and it is in the past.
Children do not need abusive people in their lives.
And my father was nothing as bad as the OP's.

Show your daughter by your actions that you now realise how toxic your family is and step away.
I really think family therapy would be very helpful too.

Your DD sounds very insightful and mature. You are doing a good job breaking the cycle. See

Your daughter sounds bright, articulate and wise; you've done a great job as parents. Call me cynical, and I may be wrong, but it sounds like his "rage" (is this new?) directed at your daughter has only started since she told him straight that she needed her space back?
Either way, he's given you the perfect reason to not allow him back in your house.

I hope that in time, you are able to get some help yourself to unpick, unpack and process the trauma that you've had as a result of growing up in your family. You sound incredibly strong and resilient 💚

@thewrongsister
Words of wisdom
Hope op Is ready to hear them
Ive rtft and was agog with way the brother had behaved
When dad refused to help it became apparent when db had learnt his selfish behaviour
Now op has said dad used to hit her with a belt ......
heck, draw a line under that and move on op.
It was NOT your fault and you longer have to pick up the peaces.
Your happiness is the best gift you can ever give someone
Stay strong.

Yes - that makes a lot of sense....

Thought I'd pop back on and let you know an update as you've all been so great with the support and advice it's the least I could do.

I'm so glad that I stuck to my guns, of course it was made easier when he disclosed that he feared he would hurt people, inc. DD. That left zero question mark about him coming back to mine and has forced the issue somewhat.

The state of the NHS is very much evidenced by the fact that my brother has been in a cubicle in A&E since last Thursday as no beds available on the mental health ward and it would have been inappropriate for him to be placed on a medical ward. But, they have been great - the mental health team have been visiting him regularly and he's now back on a therapeutic dose of his antidepressants and has sedatives when needed. He is still very much up and down, but they've (the A&E staff) been looking after him well.

He's now been offered a room at a staffed crisis house in his own county - it's a bit of a way from his home city, but in the vicinity. It will provide him with short term (few weeks) 24 hour support in a house with other people going through MH crises. The plan is then to get him home with a support plan put in place. Transport has been arranged for tomorrow morning. He's actually looking forward to being in a supported environment (apparently there's activities/arts and crafts etc.) and I'm really hoping that this is the first step to him living/coping independently without relying on me by default.

That's some good progress. Please don't get sucked back into his crises and keep your boundaries rock solid.

sending solidarity.

That sounds good! So glad you will have a peaceful Xmas

Oh that sounds really positive OP, thank you for updating. I've been thinking of you x

Oh I'm so glad, @inigomontoyahwillcox . That kind of therapeutic environment is going to be so much better for him, and hopefully makes you feel more comfortable about your decision. Turns out that it was the right thing for him, as well as for you, that you forced the situation.

I hope he does well, and that you can relax a bit.

That's a great update OP. Hope you manage to have a lovely peaceful Christmas.

@inigomontoyahwillcox my brother was in one such place after he was sectioned and it was so helpful to him. At first of course he didn’t engage much and just stayed in his room, but eventually he started to accept the various therapies on offer and it was so helpful in breaking the isolation he’d got into and allowing him to get some perspective into his mental health issues and needs.