I can't cope with depressed brother being so reliant on me. Feel like a bitch for saying that.

[inigomontoyahwillcox]

I'm so sorry - this going to be so long - but I need to get this out. I'm up with this awful cough/chest infection which makes it impossible to lie down and sleep. Been ill since last Tuesday. Have had virtually no sleep since then. Pretty sure a lot of you will think I'm a heartless cow, but I'm getting to my wits end.

Context. My brother (quite significantly older than me) has suffered from depression since he was a teen. He has been on antidepressants since then, except for a couple of occasions when he's taken himself off them for one reason or another, which have ended up in disaster. He lives about 2.5 hours away from me.

For some years now he has been spending more and more time at my house with my DH, DD and I. He lives alone and came to stay with us during lock down, and has often come to stay with us, sometimes for weeks, off and on since then when he's feeling low or had a crappy couple of weeks (e.g. work stress). I've always said to him of course he can come, how can I not, but he's often then stayed and stayed, prolonging his stay without discussing it with me - just declaring he's not going to go home for another week at the end of his planned stay.

He has a fantastic job in the civil service, but has had lot and lots of absences for various ailments over the past couple of years and they are understandably getting serious about his attendance. He seems to think this is very unfair and how they just don't understand. I've tried gently - but seriously - to explain that you can indeed be dismissed for repeated or lengthy absences.

In May this year he started getting some odd physical symptoms - balance issues/vertigo mainly (other very vague things like feeling cold, and out of it) - I rushed down there to him when this initially happened as he took himself to hospital thinking he was having a stroke. Ultimately anything serious was ruled out and after taking him to a few appointments for some further checks I drove him back to mine to stay. He decided that these symptoms were due to his antidepressant (that he'd been on for 15 years), so agreed with his GP to reduce his dose to an incredibly small one (questionable that it was even therapeutic anymore - it was 1/4 of the starting dose, he had been on double the starting dose for 15 years). His physical symptoms did clear up eventually - he put this down to this reduction in his antidepressants - I wasn't so convinced. I also voiced my concern that he was now effectively not on antidepressants and we all know how that had ended up in the past and that he needed to push to try another antidepressant if he didn't want to go back to his old one.

He eventually went back home and to work, and was there for a few months until he started experiencing stomach issues, now diagnosed as IBS (which I know is not fun - I've had it for years myself) and yet again took himself off work. He was working with his GP and a dietician and put on the FODMAP diet which he's still on. Again, he came to ours for a few weeks. His work were getting very ancy by this time and he started to do some hours remotely from ours as he had no choice. Eventually he went home again, he was home for a week only then for his depression to increase so I told him to get an emergency appointment with his GP who told him to double his dose last week. Well all hell broke loose (assuming side effects of increasing the dose). I've been ill for a couple of months now with all these bloody relentless viruses (also been very anemic for a lot longer and recently had a couple of infusions and currently undergoing tests to find out why - so you can imagine how rough I've been feeling), but last Tuesday I came down with proper flu (raging temp etc.) and have been in bed since and have been mainly off work (doing work when needed from bed). I never take time off work, honestly have to be at deaths door - have subsequently developed a chest infection and am on antibiotics. Got a call from my brother at 5:30am on Wednesday with him feeling awful saying I needed to drive down and collect him, after explaining I couldn't as I was ill asked to speak to DH and asked him to go. I said to DH that he couldn't, he had work plus he was helping me out with a work event in the evening which I obviously couldn't attend any more but he still needed to arrange some stuff and be there for a short while. I put my foot down and said he had to either drive, get the train or wait until we could drive to him and if he was in crisis to call his local crisis team immediately. He eventually said he would drive as he couldn't fit all the stuff he wanted to bring in a backpack so the train was out (so he'd get obviously decided at that point he was coming for a while).

Since he's been with us he has been waking me up every morning at silly-o'clock (e.g. 5-6), as he's been experiencing massive anxiety. I've been woken up three times now to him standing in our bedroom crying and saying he can't cope. I am getting about 2 hours of sleep per night due to this chest infection anyway, and have usually only just dropped off when he's waking me up. At this rate I'm never going to get better. DH had to stop him coming into our bedroom the other day when I had eventually managed to doze off. Anyway, called the local out of hours crisis team yesterday morning and sat with him whilst he spoke to them, they're seeing him this morning and have told him to register as a temporary patient at my local GP and they are hopefully going to make a plan going forward - e.g. moving to a new antidepressant (I hope). On the phone he said to them he was going to stay with me indefinitely (no discussion with me) and can't see himself doing his job for some months.

In the past when he's had a crisis like this he's decamped to our parents who look after him for months whilst he recovers and he finds a new job - but he's decided that he finds it too stressful to stay with them (they're getting on now as well). I can see what is going to happen. He is going to loose his job, loose his rented flat as a result and have nowhere to live but here with us. So, unemployed, living with us indefinitely. And what choice do I have?

It's really stressful when he stays with us - just the whole dynamic/routine of the household goes out the window. He has always been single and as a result his life revolves around himself, he spreads himself and his things around the house, and changes/moves/breaks thing (little things, but they all add up) and gets argumentative when I ask him not to do something. My home just doesn't feel like my home anymore; I can't spend evenings chilling out lying on the sofa in front of the telly with DH, as we often do, he's often lying on the sofa watching TV himself, he smokes although takes himself outside but his clothes smell of smoke. He is in our small spare room (well, he's on the sofa tonight for some reason) which we had just recently decked out as DD's study as her bedroom isn't really big enough for a desk; she's finishing her mocks tomorrow and has her GCSEs in May - she has ADHD and it's been incredibly challenging for her academically, but we'd really turned a corner recently and she's determined to get into 6th form, I'm so worried all of this is going to upheave her, stress her out and affect her performance; she's been so proud of her achievements recently and I think if she does badly now what little confidence she'd recently gained will disappear.

I am pretty sure a straw will break the camel's back and I will end up loosing it with him at some point, or just getting incredibly stressed and ill (stress usually manifests itself physically with me as I just try to ignore it and push on through - I've had my own mental health battles). But how can I effectively abandon my depressed brother? I love him dearly, and want him to be well, but he's come to rely on me so heavily that it's becoming too much. He's really not helped himself; taking so much time off work for spurious reasons and now he really needs the time off they are challenging him and his job is in jeopardy; him not taking my advice about not going cold turkey on the antidepressants without a plan to start a new one; just the assumption that we can constantly put our lives on hold. DH is being incredibly understanding - but I can even see him getting frustrated by my brother over the past few months. DH also had a huge mental breakdown last year and attempted suicide twice, he's only just got back on some sort of even keel about 6 months ago but is still recovering. Jesus, what if HE ends up breaking down again and then I've got 2 men in crisis to look after?! I've got my own full time stressful job to do as well, plus a neurodivergent daughter to keep on track. I'm terrified! I honestly don't know what to do for the best. He has very good friends but they don't live in the same city as him, but other than them and my parents, we're all he has.

What the fuck do I do?

I wish posters would a) read the full thread and b) recognise that the OP is in the middle of this awful crisis and obviously doing the best she can.

I think when I say advocate I mean ensure that the professionals involved in his care fully understand his condition and behaviours rather than his version. I see that as advocating for him as it's in his best interest for them to know the full story so they can address the root cause (I.e. personality disorder or neurodiversity)) rather than throwing a sticking plaster at the issue in the form of a short term hospital stay and drugs.

You are doing the best thing for all of you by approaching it in this way. I admire you a lot.

He quite literally said that he is raging and worried he will kill his teenage niece. So yes, that is murderous.

This all came about when your dd, gently told him he couldn't stay because she needed his room as a study ....,,thus making her the problem, in his head, as the reason he couldn't stay (not the fact op is having a breakdown with all the stress of his demands)
I knew someone like that.
Their sister did eventually cut them off .....they had to get on with it...and are actually doing really well
Yes they were upset at first....but it's seems people (op and db) can locked into a role/pattern, and someone has to stop the dance, break the chain.
Being needed can be addictive, making you feel important and validated ...... but you have reprogram yourself to get validation elsewhere.

Just saw this.
Yes , nailed it
Very manipulative- and very dangerous, but a tantrum all the same.

This OP.

Also, regards DD and children's SS. Emotional neglect is a thing. It's DD you should be supporting and advocating for, not DB.

DB has proved with his insistence on...

1- contacting your friends even against your wishes and inviegling his way into their home and life in less than a day, although he then set a grenade under that plan
2- telling home treatment team he's staying with you indefinitely, without any prior discussion with you
3- showing up at parents house and insisting on being looked after for extended periods of time, even after they've told him not to come
4- insisting you drive down and fetch him whenever he wants to come to stay and staying for a long as he chooses, against your wishes and without discussion
5- vocalising his thoughts about how he's "about to" explode, trash the place and harm people, prior to doing anything he could be arrested for

...that he is well able to advocate for himself, even when very unwell.

If you and DH combined can't get DB car at least to the next town 10miles away (taking a second car for you both to return in), then I'd ask the police what to do about DB car since you don't want him coming to your home address to collect it, having threatened your DD life. Perhaps under the circumstances it can be towed somewhere and he can collect from there? Even if you had to pay the towing fee.

Just so you know, if police are called to someone acting irrationally in a public place or if the person says they can't keep themselves safe, the police can arrest them under the MH act and if daytime take to A&E and if nighttime take direct to a psych ward, where they'll be assessed in the morning for whether they need to stay. You don't ever need to go to A&E with him again if you find him in your locality acting up or demanding to come in or crying on your doorstep etc.

I agree. OP needs to go no contact and let her daughter and husband know exactly why. She needs to tell social services to keep this violent man away from her family.

But if the OP doesn't give her version of her brother's illness to the staff treating him, he can minimise and evade. She has to be involved to this degree at least. She almost has no choice in this part, because her parents are unlikely to. That's the only way she can truly safeguard her DD.

Anything more than this is entirely on her own terms. I admire you OP for everything you've done and will do

OP, I read your whole story yesterday and just wanted to express my real admiration for how you are coping. I really can't imagine how you are holding it all together between caring for essentially ALL of your family members and holding down a full time job. You are a marvel.

I also felt incredibly angry for you and reached the same conclusion as many on here that your DB is manipulative and selfish more than or as much as being unwell, and likely following the template of your father who has proven himself the same. You and your nuclear family are NOT support humans to these absurd, vampiric men who seem to think you exist purely to make their lives easier.

I'm strangely glad to read in your latest updates that things have come to a head and that you are relieved of what was never your responsibly (your DB) in favour of the only thing that absolutely is (your DD). Stay strong.

God knows your DD has also had more than enough to contend with for one lifetime. Please protect her, physically and emotionally, and to the exclusion of all others if necessary (including, if it ever came to it, your DH).

All the very best to you.

But if the OP doesn't give her version of her brother's illness to the staff treating him, he can minimise and evade.

Exactly. It's 100% in OP's interests for her to remain in contact with the mental health team. He's already telling them that he's best off staying in her area. Each new person involved in his case had the potential to be swayed by his own account, so she needs to be available to make the reality clear.

Those of you telling her to stay away from it all, are giving advice that is the most likely to lead to him appearing at her door.

Telling DBs medical staff isn't going to make any difference to OPs life. It gives the staff a better understanding of DB is all.

It won't stop him evading treatment if that's his choice. He has capacity, he's allowed to evade it! He's currently not a convicted criminal, nobody can make him undergo any treatment.

If he's ever sectioned, he may be let out with conditions attached, such as having to regularly take certain medications or having to live in a certain place and if he doesn't comply then he'll be sectioned again. Those conditions don't necessarily last forever though.

He's also not that likely to be sectioned. For a start, even if we accept he's not making stuff up to look more ill but genuinely feels how he says he feels, he's so far wanting hospital admission. So he'll be in there voluntarily not under section. If he's sectioned and is compliant he'll likely be downgraded to voluntary. As soon as he appears stable and harmless he'll be discharged without conditions.

He's not getting kept in for months on end regardless of what OP tells them. They don't have the funding or the beds. He doesn't live near OP or the niece he's in danger of attacking. He has job, friends, home etc in the area he lives, all reasons for him not to end up in OPs area on the daily.

He'll tell them it was a moment of hopelessness or similar and how much he loves his relatives. He's not going to big it up because he doesn't want medication (keeps taking himself off it) or therapy (fails to attend), he loves his job and wants to work* so he doesn't want a long term hospital stay either.

The "I'll have to go to hospital then" was just part of his emotional manipulation to stay in OPs home (like, noooo pleeeeease don't send me to The Mental Asylum!!!!). Note how he didn't take himself straight off to hospital but to OPs friend's house where he caused a drama and got OP all to himself for a few hours to drive him to hospital.

He'll be in there somewhere from a day or so for assessment (and assessed as not needing hospital, (this doesn't mean assessment for diagnosis) then discharged home) to a couple of weeks at the most I reckon whilst he transitions onto new meds.

He may or may not have home treatment team show up daily for a short period after discharge basically to ensure he's not got an immediate suicide/murder plan for that day and is taking the meds. Then he'll maybe be handed over to a local MH team who might give him a social worker/therapy/diagnosis (eventually after waiting lists) or might not. Else he'll be discharged to his GP with a new meds regime and left to get on with it.

OP giving them information helps provide a bigger picture to his medical professionals but it's going to make no difference whatsoever to her own life. His social services dept will be adult MH in his location, if he's involved with them at all. Nothing to do with children's social services dept in another locality. They won't even talk to each other. Telling them won't keep OPs DD safe. Reporting herself to children's SS in her area won't get her DB any more help than he'd otherwise get. It'll just give her a SS situation to deal with in her own family.

Telling police might help things be taken more seriously if she has to call them, if she's in an area where you report a crime and they usually show up three days later to take a statement. Reporting the threat and a hospital admission will flag up to police the seriousness of the situation and they can put a marker on her home and might actually come if called.

Mainly she should tell DD and DH because otherwise there's nothing to stop them rushing over there or inviting DB in if he shows up/phones up looking like his usual self, vulnerable, upset, saying he needs help etc. That's the most dangerous situation of all. DD can't be protected from what he said, because she's too old to be kept under constant parental supervision. She's going to be home alone, out in the world alone or with friends etc. Knowledge is power. She needs to know that she needs to be NC with her uncle from now on for her own safety.

• although I see he calls in sick at every opportunity and seems to possibly be working only enough to scrape by paying bills. I'm guessing he's quite well paid and accrues savings when not off sick. Civil service may even be paying full wages for up to six months when off sick each time. So I question how committed he really is to working and whether, given his constant crises, he's really fit to work on a permanent basis at all. He could be someone whose health precludes them holding down a permanent full-time job.

Then she calls the police. Hopefully the OP is taking the threat seriously and is in the process of applying for an injunction and has informed the police of the threat.

She should change her locks and make sure he house is secure (ring camera, getting into the habit of double locking the door etc…). Then leave it to their parents and the professionals. If she gets involved it is a possibility she would be considered his support network and she will be back to where she started. Plus she needs a break from the emotional toll her brother keeps extracting.

It is her childhood conditioning that is stopping her from this, then trying to use logic to justify putting her family second before him again.

The current state of play is that his local hospital cannot take him for 2 weeks (no beds) so he is staying at my local hospital until they can transfer him. Whilst he's here they are increasing his meds back up to therapeutic levels and regularly sedating him to manage his "rage"/side effects.

He's texted my DH this morning to say he's feeling better today, sitting up and talking to the nurses - my first comment was "he better not say he wants to discharge himself and come to mine", DH said that was his first thought too. We're both 100% in agreement that this is absolutely not even in the ballpark of an option, and we'd agreed on this even before his threats of violence.

I've been reading every comment (even the offshoot arguments about the validity of personality disorders ... I'll leave that one to the professionals!). I've got lots of responses to them which I'll post separately as and when I can ( was busy with work v late yesterday and am taking part in a charity DJ marathon today - which will be fun!).

Hope you're okay today OP. It must be exhausting for you and you're doing your very best in really difficult circumstances. I can see you really want to put your family first, hence advocating to make sure he isn't able to lean on you any more.

I’m so pleased to hear they’re taking responsibility for him at the hospital.

Well done, OP - and good luck with your charity thing today! You are doing so well.

Well done OP. Hopefully this is the start of him being properly managed by the system. Enjoy the DJ thing.

I don't think your dd needs to know the specifics, but something like 'he's not well, he's prone to lashing out and dramatics to try and get me to do stuff, for the moment we're not permitting him to be here and none of us are going to put ourselves in the position of being alone with him until he can take responsibility again.'

You are doing so well OP and in circumstances many of us would find impossible. The threats against your DD are awful, but they've cut through the manipulation and FOG. Your DB might see her as competition, but it's more straightforward than that. She's simply more important to you than he is and that's how it should be. You and DH are quite right to hold the line, not just with your brother, but with the hospital too.

Do you have anything in writing, making your position absolutely clear, that your DB will understand no circumstances be returning to live with you? It sounds like an obvious question, but my background (in advice work) has made me advocate for paper-trails, (physical or not) on everything from refunds for the broken eggs you might have got with your last online order, upwards to the really important stuff, eg, your situation.

All the best with the event. I've never heard of DJ Marathons, but presumably they are held where it's dry and warm (they'd need to be this weekend!)

It wouldn't surprise me if the comment about hurting your DD was for maximum dramatic effect. Also as has been mentioned he doesn't like that your DDs are coming before his and he's so self centred he didn't realise it before DD mentioned her studying.

I would keep everything he has said about your daughter to yourself.
She is a child and doesn't need to know of such things.
She has been far too exposed already.
Just reassurance that he will never stay again is enough and that her priority is her studies and to be well.

Well done OP.

Have you told you parents of his comments and that is something that can’t be reversed?

I agree. Would fit with PD manipulation.

However even if that's true I would still not be lowering the risk.

And even if he has no intention but was prepared to terrify you, your DH and DD to that extreme - he would be gone from my life.

He has shot himself in the foot and I would be slamming that door very tight and ensuring practical safety of your DD.

There is something very chilling about his method of strangulation .... as choking is a well known and well evidenced re-cursor red flag for fatalities in VAWG.

As the MH nurse with 36 years of experinec earlier in the thread said - he has insight and responsibility. He knows what he is doing - he is not in a psychotic episode.

All the best to your DH and DD. They dont need any more of their lives to be shadowed by this character. You have done enough and its futile (not your fault).

I would pivot and prioritise my finite time, emotional energy abd headspace to the people who need and would benefit most from your attention - yourself, your DD and your DH.

Best of luck to you - get out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) which your family of birth has enmeshed you in. These are never states to live your life, make decsions or take actions.

This is a man she knows and loves and considers family
Someone she believes she can trust despite his illness
A man she's lived with on and off all her life
A man who she has seen her mother put first above everything time and time again
He has form for showing up at his parents home to stay when he's specifically been told not to come
He also has been allowed to decide for himself when to stay with OP
A grown man with manipulative tendencies

So let's be generous and say maybe there's only a small risk he'd kill her... it's not a risk I recommend anyone take.

The DD needs to know not to open the door even to speak to him if he shows up, no matter what state he's in, no matter what he says and to walk the other way if she sees him on the street, even if he's seen her and is calling and waving her over. Given DD history with him, how's OP realistically going to get her DD to do that without letting the child know she's in danger.