Young, British and Anti Abortion.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

I was half watching it last night and intend to watch properly later. The guy they featured was a misogynistic Incel type.

Did anyone else see it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00256p2

Having lived in America and here, I am 99% sure we will never ban abortions or limit them in the way they have in the states. Culturally there just isn’t the appetite for it. There’s also huge fundamental differences in the way we view religion and health care.

I’ve not actually noticed much of an anti-abortion sentiment increase here, that doesn’t seem to have been imported from the states, as many other things have been. This will be an interesting watch though, thanks for raising it.

Yes "pro abortion" is bollocks. Just as "pro life" is bollocks. If you're anti-abortion, you're not "pro life", because you don't care about the lives of women with unwanted pregnancies.

Absolutely no way am I saying pregnant women aren’t innocent. What a weird take. Yeah some humans are innocent of crime and some are guilty. My point is that all innocent people have a right not to be killed and the only time we have a right to kill is in proportionate self-defence against someone guilty of committing a crime.

In the terrible circumstance both lives are at risk you have to save one. There are some sad cases in which the unborn human dies as a result of saving the mother’s life. Some examples are:

Ectopic pregnancy – in an ectopic pregnancy an human embryo gets stuck and implants in the woman’s fallopian tubes. If the embryo implants itself there then it will not develop correctly, will die and if not removed can also kill the mother. We do not have the technology to move it from the tubes to the uterus so sadly the unborn human being along with the damaged part of the woman’s fallopian tube has to be removed. In this case, removing the human embryo would not be considered an abortion because the baby cannot survive and if allowed to be kept in the tube could harm or kill the mother. The intent here is not to target and destroy the human embryo, but to save the life of the mother therefore it is not an abortion.

Cancer – if a pregnant woman is diagnosed with cancer and needs to receive chemotherapy immediately there is a risk of her child being harmed or killed. This again, would not be an abortion because administering the chemo treatment is not done with the intention to kill the baby but save the life of the mother. The baby may possibly die as a result, but it would not be the intentional targeting and killing of the child. Therefore, it is not an abortion.

One thing to remember is that abortion is the intentional targeting and killing of a human being. If the unborn human dies as a tragic result of treatment administered to save the life of the mother, it is not intentional, and the sad death is a secondary result.

With regards to your last scenario, it is, of course a terrible tragedy if a mother dies whilst trying to kill her unborn baby. So awful. But that doesn’t mean killing unborn babies should be legal.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Just to clarify, I’m not trying to force women to become pregnant or somehow impose pregnancy on them. That’s called r@p3.

Your manipulation of semantics is chilling.

Luckily, the legal definitions differ from yours.

Legally, a foetus is only a human being in its own right when it is no longer in its mother's body.

Of course, anti-abortionists just love to talk about "killing babies" 🙄

But if a woman is raped you think she should be forced to continue the pregnancy and birth the child of her rapist?

If you support the existence of abortion, you’re pro-abortion.

If you don’t support the existence of abortion, you’re anti-abortion.

If you have a problem with being labelled ”pro-abortion” you should probably have a think about why. :)

Perfectly happy to say I'm pro abortion for any woman who wants/needs one.

@flagondry

A few queries:

If it comes to decision as to whether the mother or the unborn child dies, whose life would take precedence? Does your answer change if the mother already has living children?

If the mother is forced to have the child what do you and your organisation do to support that child where the family can't afford that child? If the mother can't bond with it because she is constantly reminded of the rape that produced it? Or the family is struggling to support the disabled child?

Hi Flagondry. 3 years ago I was pregnant and the baby stopped growing and died. The pregnancy didnt miscarry naturally and eventually I had to have surgery to remove the failed pregnancy. Do you think I had an abortion?

Abortion will always exist. You can't make it go away. You make it illegal and unsafe. Or you can make it legal and safe.

I don't think abortion is anything to be ashamed about, so if you want to say "pro-abortion", knock yourself out. But, as with so much of the other language you use, it's misleading. You're implying that pro choice means that people think abortion is a good thing. No, most people think it is sometimes a necessary thing.

Absolutely not.

A miscarriage is the natural, unintentional death of an unborn human.
An abortion is unnatural and intentional killing of an unborn human.
They are not the same.

I’m very sorry for your loss and your experience. X

You're crossed the line there and revealed your true colours, haven't you?

You think you're morally superior, obviously, and now you're accusing me of not using my brain because I'm challenging you.

This is a terrible argument, that when applied to any other human rights injustice, doesn’t make sense.

I’m off to bed now! Have a lovely night and thanks for your comments!

I had an early medical abortion at 7 weeks. It was a heavy period not a 'baby'. I didn't then, and haven't in the 20 years since ever had a moments regret or 'trauma'. In all honesty I don't think about it from one year to the next.

Do you believe life begins at conception? Are you also therefore against the morning after pill?

Oh, goodnight Miss Smuggitty Smugface.

I probably won’t come on this thread again! If you have any questions you’re more than welcome to DM me on Instagram, my handle is: edenmccourt

You didn't answer my question about pregnancies that result from rape... funny that.

You still haven't answered, (and didn't on the show, I watched it yesterday) why you position yourself as anti coercion, with no solutions to the coercion issues you raised such as finance, and yet think coercing an already pregnant person to give birth when they don't want to is ok.

I am not religious, but actually had more respect for the views of James , despite vehemently disagreeing with them. They at least had an internal consistency, albeit not to my taste. You had no coherent argument.

Is it a good idea to force women to have children they don't want? I don't think that's the best start in life for a child.

The examples you mention are, 100%, abortions. They are one of the reasons abortions are so necessary. You seem to want to change the actual definition of word abortion so you don't have to engage with these moral dilemmas.

You seem to be saying you can abort where the intention is to save the life of the mother. What other exceptions fit in? What about mothers who need medication which damages developing embryos (sodium valporate, for example). In some medical conditions, being pregnant increases your risk of death through complications or childbirth. Where do you place the cut off? 90% risk of death? 80%? 99%?

Where do you stand on compulsory organ donation after death? If against it, why do corpses get more autonomy when it comes to maintaining human life than pregnant women?

Exactly. People still had abortions pre 67, it's just they were dangerous, backstreet ones instead of safe ones. Unless someone was rich, then they could go to a private hospital and the hospital would fake their records that they werent pregnant and needed a D&c for other reasons. Let's stop safe abortions and go back to dangerous ones. Yay!

I wonder what these anti-abortionists are suggesting - if anything - to prevent unwanted pregnancies?

Campaigning to persuade men to get vasectomies, maybe?

Funding initiatives to educate people about effective contraception, and to provide that contraception?

No?

@flagondry the anti abortion movement ignores one big truth. It’ll still happen, but women will die. It will be pushed into the back streets again with unqualified people, and if that goes wrong women won’t be able to seek medical help. That’s the major flaw. You can’t push your views onto desperate people, they will be desperate enough to do it anyway.

If it does gain traction in this country I’ll be out there fighting for women younger than me to have safe, legal access to abortion.