Uni suicide - tragedy but is this the only recourse for women that experience assault ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14060637/Oxford-University-student-20-killed-cancelled-female-friend-told-pals-felt-uncomfortable-sexual-encounter.hotlink

Superficially this is a tragedy and the sites is was the major factor for that led to it. However given the extremely low probability of criminal conviction of the university acting from a disciplinary point of view are women justified in using ostracism as the only till they have left for justice and as a warning to others that may consider assault a crime where there are in reality limited chance of consequence?

The woman concerned comes across as psychologically cruel and the coroner warns against 'cancel culture' but there seems more to this and perhaps the woman concerned was justified in talking to their friendship group at the very least as warning to other woemn?

Is this the social equivalent of a lunch mob with no proven guilt or the actions of a woman who knew there is typically no justice from authorities in such cases?

I'm not sure it can be considered ostracism or cancelling given that the whole thing played out over only 4 days.
I think it does depend on why the sex caused her "discomfort", I don't agree that women owe men quiet tolerance just because behaviour isn't criminal.
It's very unfortunate, but there's more to this story. I hardly think we can think we can blame anyone else for this suicide after only a couple of days of friends distancing themselves over an unspecified event.

It is, but acting like a prat and handling a messy situation badly is part of being young and socially inexperienced regardless of what uni you are at. I do think there needs to be a different conversation with young people about how to handle these situations though.

I didn't say she was responsible. In my opinion, she's not.

However I know from being around these situations before, some people in her university will definitely be blaming her for his death. That's how it goes. The people that ostracised him will now be ostracised her and two friends. That's cancel culture. Reputations stick. People will be pointing at them and saying that the made a lad kill himself

So she will have to do damage control and brazen it out and say that she didn't say anything about him

His friends will also be doing damage control and will be saying that they didn't do much to him either.

Off the top of my head, here are three sexual situations that would make me uncomfortable with a male friend who I had known 2.5 years.

1. He took a nude of me without asking first. He deleted it when I protested but what if I hadn’t spotted him taking it?
2. He put a hand on my throat without asking first. When I looked distressed, he removed it. But he didn’t check for consent
3. I bumped into him in the bar, I was already drunk and upset about a bad mark, and he kept buying me shots before we left together. I was just about sober enough to consent but I do feel he set out to lower my inhibitions

I have put these in increasing order of severity, but none of them would be reportable as assault, IMO. I would certainly support a friend who told me about a guy who had done any of them, though.

However I know from being around these situations before, some people in her university will definitely be blaming her for his death. That's how it goes. The people that ostracised him will now be ostracised her and two friends. That's cancel culture. Reputations stick. People will be pointing at them and saying that the made a lad kill himself

Thie happened in January and Alexander was in third year. Although some do four year courses, there is a good chance most have left college by now.

This happened in January and Alexander was in third year. Although some do four year courses, there is a good chance most have left college by now

Not most I shouldn't think, at that particular college, because the majority of courses it offers are four year courses (plus the medics who stay even longer). A lot of people will still be around.

No one should be blamed for another person's suicide.

Depression, mental illness, anxiety, psychosis, acting irresponsibly, acting on impulse, crying for help but overdoing it - these are the causes of suicide.

I really despise this new blame culture. Someone or something must be to blame for the choices an individual makes. No, they and they alone are responsible for the choice they make. All the "just be kind" virtue signalling after Caroline Flack made her decision?! She was surrounded by people being kind.

You are behaving no better than a troll, going online and accusing her on nothing more than hearsay and questionable unethical news reporting. I hope the young woman's family will seek legal action to deal with slander following the Daily Mail reporting.

@KittyPup
She chose not to make any type of report in any place - either the police or the university. Instead she chose to individually tell a variety of people that he made her feel “uncomfortable” to turn everyone against him. It was malicious and attention seeking. She never thought that it would end in him taking his own life. It is a total tragedy and she is to blame.
And here you are hounding the young woman.... do people have no self awareness anymore? You are doing something worse than the young woman. She shared her negative experience with her friends, privately face to face not online, as is her good right. But you are taking part in a witch hunt, making up gossip even though you're not personally affected and you know for a fact that you do not know what's happened between them. Or is it just too much fun to hurt people online?

@Mirabai
And how did it pan out? That’s why you need to report to appropriate channels and let them deal with it, and not get involved, because otherwise you’re implicated in the consequences.
Even if she had reported it she'd still have talked to her friends about it. Are you suggesting victims of abuse should be silent so that the person who hurt them doesn't feel sad?

@mids2019 mids2019
why would people ostracise people who had drunken sex with the wrong person at the wrong time . This seems incredibly harsh in a liberal society and in a university where let's face it there is a fair amount of sex and a fair amount of alcohol.
Could be a result of a pornified society, where porn, Only Fans and such content is freely available at the push of a button the real thing becomes more moralised, especially among the more privileged classes.

You've clearly never tried reporting a sexual assault to the police. I have, and I probably wouldn't do it again.

She isn't to blame for his death, irrespective of whether she told friends she had been sexually assaulted.

That wasn't my point. I didn't say she was to blame for his death. I don't think she was . She was one factor in what happened. Other things also led him to do what he did, namely his own guilt and shame that he wrote about.

What I said is that she will definitely be blamed for his death by some of her peers. That always happens. People are angry after a suicide and they want someone to blame.

A man killed himself in my hometown and people blamed his ex girlfriend.

Luckily this girl is leaving Uni after a while so she won't be around the same people

I always thought of cancel culture as more to do with financial implications eg publishers will cancel a book, a tv company might cancel a director, if they disagree with their values. Surely this is more a case of shunning? Shunning is as old as time, many religious groups do it to individuals they feel haven't behaved in an acceptable way according to their dogma.
Back in my day it was colloquially known as 'putting someone in Coventry', it can be a form of bullying, but it can also be a very effective way of saying 'behave by the rules, or you are out'. Is being permanently excluded from school a form of shunning? And where is the cross over of acceptable 'kicking someone out of a group' for unacceptable behaviour and kicking someone of a group due to bullying?
So many social and philosophical questions around shunning.
I feel sorry for all involved. Horrible for everyone. And the ripple effect of this will be far reaching. Again very gut wrenching for all involved.

That kind of 'tight spot' - being between a rock and a hard place, a catch 22, a 'your'e damned if you do and damned if you don't' experience is an EVERYDAY occurrence for many, many, probably the majority of people. If you aren't wealthy, if you haven't got the family connections and associated influence, if you don't fit in, if you are struggling due to disability or ill health, immigration trauma, being bullied at a state school with nowhere to turn, being sexually abused in the work place but can't change jobs as you have to put food on the table for your kids, etc.etc.etc. all these people try their best to carry on, keep going everyday. They experience trauma and may never heal from it but I suppose when you're disadvantaged you develop coping mechanisms simply to get through each day. I suppose children that grow up sheltered and with extremely high expectations to succeed and be among part of the top tier in the country/world, 'being between a rock and a hard place' is harder to deal with.

The girl may have been justified in her actions trying to whip up a social frenzy against him and freeze him out.

There’s no evidence she did anything of the sort. It’s more likely that it just snowballed and others jumped in and had their tuppence worth - like her ex.

Even if she had reported it she'd still have talked to her friends about it. Are you suggesting victims of abuse should be silent so that the person who hurt them doesn't feel sad?

Where did I say anything approaching this? Of course she will discuss it with her friends. It’s everyone else putting their oar in that caused the problem.

If consent can't be given assume its not.
I have told my son that its a No unless there is a very clear YES, no is the default

It could have easily been the girl ending up experiencing social isolation and judgment. In this rare case, the victim was supported by their peer group, often it's the other way round. What's a lot more questionable is the culture at this college in particular and Oxbridge one general. If you have such close-knit communities of extremely privileged and high achieving people who go to elite institutions with hundreds of years long traditions of politicking, networking and abusive, racist, homophobic and chauvinistic cultures, YP who are sensitive and less resilient will struggle massively. Anecdotally, friends and people I know who went to Oxbridge about 20-30 year ago are all mentally struggling. It's quite a toxic environment. Yet so many striving parents want Oxbridge for their dc.

Had he assaulted this girl, the press would have said.

You cannot categorically state this @LBFseBrom

The press would have needed a source to print this - and I’m sure the girl and her friends would be advised not to be that source. The independent consultant hired by the College would not be able to freely give a press statement either.

They would also have to be careful printing allegations about a young man no longer around to put his side of the story.

It may well not have reached the criminal standard of assault, but you can’t infer that it didn’t from lack of press comment.

Uncomfortable sex could mean anything. If she had not long finished with her ex she may have felt that she had crossed a boundary and was worried that if her ex found out it would cause problems. It obviously did. Was it revenge sex in order to punish her ex, that she confessed to before someone else told him. They may have been “on a break”.
Teenage relationships are very complex nowadays.
My DS’s first girlfriend finished with him for a weekend so she could sleep with a lad she fancied ( although knowing the lad in question there was probably a great deal of coercion involved). They got back together but he inevitably found out and although in her mind it was ok, DS never really agreed. When they split up she made up a pack of lies and he was ostracised. He survived but her best friend still causes trouble for him. She recently accused him of spiking her drink, based on the fact it was “ fizzier” than it should have been. He didn’t but his new nickname amongst his mates is Fizz, not that anyone would know why.
Teenagers work in packs with strict rules, one of which dictates who you can and can’t go out with. It’s likely this had more to do with the perceived hierarchy within their group. If the ex was one of the alpha males then you don’t have sex with their ex and the whole pack will turn on you if you do.

It’s likely this had more to do with the perceived hierarchy within their group. If the ex was one of the alpha males then you don’t have sex with their ex and the whole pack will turn on you if you do.

Yeah.

Or it could be any of the reasons I put in a PP, all of which are poor sexual behaviour but wouldn’t be assault.

Or it could be rape/assault.

You cannot say “it’s likely” as you have absolutely no idea.

Also, on a point of fact: Alexander was 20 and not a teenager.

I wish there was a like button for posts like this

I also think that if was sexual assault it would be acknowledged as such. Uncomfortable suggests that it was sex that she consented to but may put her in a socially difficult position. And that she was embarrassed by.

I'm not sure I believe this same dynamic was at play here but your son's particular experience sounds absolutely horrendous. I really have no words, that is so manipulative of the ex girlfriend. It's callous, pack mentality level bullying.
Why is there such a pack mentality among young people? Where is their individuality, freedom of expression and choice and personal integrity and independence. It's depressing. I don't remember having to be part of a group being as important when I was young. We had much more liberty. I hope your son can move on and find a new better group of people. Calling him Fizz is excruciatingly unpleasant, utterly basic behaviour. Hopefully his next girlfriend and friendship group won't be toxic and he can move on. How stressful for you.

I have a 20 yr old son at uni. Believe me there is very little difference in their behaviour. Probably worse because they are not at home where casual sex is somewhat more difficult.

His friendship group are very supportive, the “Fizz” nickname is very much on a need to know and he is fine with it. It reminds them just how batshit the girl is, and sort of back fired on her. DS was famously spiked a couple of years ago so it’s ironic.