Uni suicide - tragedy but is this the only recourse for women that experience assault ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14060637/Oxford-University-student-20-killed-cancelled-female-friend-told-pals-felt-uncomfortable-sexual-encounter.hotlink

Superficially this is a tragedy and the sites is was the major factor for that led to it. However given the extremely low probability of criminal conviction of the university acting from a disciplinary point of view are women justified in using ostracism as the only till they have left for justice and as a warning to others that may consider assault a crime where there are in reality limited chance of consequence?

The woman concerned comes across as psychologically cruel and the coroner warns against 'cancel culture' but there seems more to this and perhaps the woman concerned was justified in talking to their friendship group at the very least as warning to other woemn?

Is this the social equivalent of a lunch mob with no proven guilt or the actions of a woman who knew there is typically no justice from authorities in such cases?

Which I covered, if you read my final sentence which made particular reference to that case. The ruling was that Bristol uni discriminated against Natasha and that this contributed to her death. It found the uni breached its duty to make reasonable adjustments to the way it assessed Natasha, engaged in indirect disability discrimination and treated Natasha unfavourably because of the consequences of her disability.

What it found, nonetheless, was that the uni did not have a duty of common law care.

Which has opened up debate on the precise nature of HE providers duty of care as I said.

What happened to this person was a coordinated effort of physical attacks, social ostracism and bullying based off a report of someone feeling uncomfortable.

Coordinated? It wasn’t a military operation!

Again, remember this took place over just 4 days. It is possible she told her ex, who then went and shoved/punched/fought him impulsively. Bad and not on, but male violence, not her fault.

Then other friends were told and decided to support her by not talking to him.

There are no reports - unless I have missed them - of more than one physical incident, although you have used the plural.

The thing is that no-one had to do anything terribly wrong for this tragedy to occur.

The woman is perfectly entitled to discuss her uncomfortable experience. She was also discussing it with an ex which suggests a very tangled closed in group, and that may have been cos they were close, or she may have felt she had to give an account to her ex and his friends.

The man himself clearly felt devastated he had done in his mind an unintentional but bad thing, we don't know what. Oxford colleges are very closed and he probably imagined his whole uni experience of being shunned and couldn't see the way out.

Being uncomfortable after sex, feeling coerced or whatever happened is devastating. Being accused of doing that, even if you did, is life changingly awful, and it's not something most young men would just get over, nor the woman.

So sad that none of them sought help from tutors or student support for this.

I have supported a student accused of something similar. In his case he was extremely fortunate that he was with others who were witnesses and there was Cctv cooborating his story, most sexual encounters are not of this nature! Why the person lied I have no idea, I can guess but have no proof. The police did, rightly, a very thorogh investigation. He told me he thought of suicide.

As someone who lived in a very small college environment I can see how 'ostracism' happens. You are essentially living, eating, sleeping, partying, studying etc in a tiny adult boarding school, where it is impossible to avoid anyone. For people talking about formal channels...me and some other women were stalked and sexually harassed by a male student who had previously been suspended from his school for revenge porn and taking secret videos of girls. We reported him, and the college simply told us to avoid him - to sit at a different table, leave the library if he was there etc. You can be damn sure I told other women about this, and warned them about his overly friendly advances. If he had killed himself over this, it would have been terrible, but I don't see how it would have been anyone's fault. Perhaps students feel they need to resort to measures like ostracism because the institutional reaction is usually just a shrug.

I also know several women who reported rapes and sexual assaults (by the same male student) to their college. The male student lawyered up, and the investigation against him was dropped. He wasn't ostracised, by the way. All the men rallied behind him. One of the women committed suicide over this, and there was an inquest, but I guess that's not as newsworthy.

I think this is it. Students get so much more support at school, that they don't expect to suddenly be thrown into the deep end with no support from their university. Many universities also set up things to make it look like they help when they actually don't, which makes it even harder and more confusing. My university made a big thing of having a named helpline you could call - it turned out to be other clueless, non-trained students the same age, answering the phone for volunteer credit.

People forget that kids have had their parents, family system, and basically everyone they know disappear physically from their daily lives to be thrown in with a bunch of strangers and suddenly expected to become adults and manage adult problems overnight. It's a big shock, especially if you're vulnerable or are a bit neurodivergent and you're used to a different routine. It's a new environment with far fewer rules, and for people who often haven't learned to use a washing machine yet it's a lot all at once.

But why would you report that to the college not the police ?

In my case, the male student's behaviour didn't reach any criminal threshold so it was an internal disciplinary matter. The police wouldn't do anything. In the case of the women who were raped? I can't speak for them or say why they didn't go to the police.

My post removed for speaking the truth about what happened!

Obviously she didn't know he would kill himself but spreading a hate campaign is downright evil.

Unintentional

and unforgivable. People are concentrating on unforgivable, and disregarding ‘unintentional’

I think he judged himself very harshly for an unintentional act.

Of course she’s allowed to seek support. But being clear on what happened can be a tall order for a YP. We all know that sometimes things which are relatively minor in law and social norms can feel big; OTOH it is possible she was raped.

My point was that only she knows what she said, to whom, and why. I am not making any kind of judgment on that, because I have seen all sides. Not only with the UK undergraduate I referenced above, but by being a sounding board for other students (not very happily) and following some cases at US universities (I used to teach at university there), where problems have sometimes come to light.

Women at some US universities have sometimes had the power to ban accused men from attending classes with them and otherwise interfering with their degrees, per university regulations. Sometimes the men have taken this to court and sometimes testimony has emerged which puts a different light on things. A number of these university imposed sanctions have been overturned.

This doesn’t mean I am biased in favour of Mr Rogers. It just means that no living person except the young woman really knows what happened, and for her ex to start a physical fight with Mr Rogers over this was wrong.

It's a big mess where people are very very drunk like at college and so consent is not able to be given.

Possibly because the CPS prosecute something like 6% of rapes. It hasn’t always been quite that bad but it has been very low for a long time.

God help you if you’ve ever been seen with a drink in your hand, especially chatting civilly to the accused.

Exactly this.

''Shunning'' or 'cancel culture' - the ''Sending to Coventry'' is a psychological tool that is designed to be unpleasant.

If there was a crime committed, then go through proper channels, but ''uncomfortable'' is such a nebulous thing.

Disappointed by all the posts blaming the woman. We obviously don't have many details to go on, other than that she felt 'uncomfortable' about their encounter, and he felt what he'd done was 'unforgivable'. Not her responsibility to protect him from his own or other people's reactions to that. And there was no ostracisation, he killed himself the following day. No time had elapsed for him to be excluded from anything, he may have been in the future, it may have blown over, we don't know, and he didn't know. How depressing that women aren't even allowed to avoid someone who makes them feel that way, regardless of whether the behaviour amounts to a crime or not. Of course it's sad for his family that he is dead, and that his decision seems so impulsive and final.

I also wouldn't want to date a man accused myself given those stats, so I think the fear of complete social ostracisation isn't unfounded.

@poetryandwine I agree that the actions of the ex-boyfriend were inappropriate, but I can also imagine the situation in which it would happen - a boy who feels a certain ownership over the girl, having been in a relationship with her, wanting to demonstrate that he is one of the good ones one won't let other boys get away with it, immature, hot headed, telling himself he's in the right, possibly with others around him encouraging it. A lot of young people find these situations exciting and want to involve themselves in it. Saw it all in halls at uni.

I know someone who went to class with them. Apparently the girl never made any rape allegations (formal or informal), didn’t know what was going on, and it seems the boys who bullied him just made it up.

I am so sorry for your experience, @WeeBisom

My own university has a regrettable history, also. Women need to go to the police to have a complaint taken seriously, internally. Appalling

Was he not hit by the ex and told no-one would speak to him for two weeks? He saw his future and didn't like it. It doesn't mean she was wrong though, but he wasn't wrong that in the short term it was grim.

She would have to say that now though wouldn't she.

I presume people are going to her saying "what did you say"

And she will deny it, as she won't want blame
for his death.

Indeed, the ''White Knight'' syndrome of the ex boyfriends.

Or possessiveness. Who knows?

I agree with you, but it is vigilante justice.

Oxbridge will talk itself blue about the quality of its intake. There should be no room for this.

This crossed my mind also

She is not responsible for his death.
It is incredibly unlikely that a situation like this would lead to suicide. It happens all of the time in schools and universities and does not lead to students taking their own lives. He will have been vulnerable in other ways, perhaps unknown to others.