Hands Across The Water - Trump thread #135

[Spandauer]

There's only one floating pile of garbage in this story and it lives in Mar a Lago.

To Kamala Harris and all the other Democratic candidates on the ballot - May your courage, determination and hard work bring you the success you deserve. ❤️
To Donald (Jessica) Trump - May you get everything you deserve... and then some.

Community Notice
This won't be the last thread in this bigly nightmare and these threads may fly by over the next week so anyone who is up for continuing them please feel free to do so as I may not be awake all the time!

Previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5164974-whats-true-pussycat-trump-thread-134?page=10

It is and I hope that the Democrats will listen to the reasons for voter dissatisfaction. It its really the only way forward and address reasonable concerns.

Stopping the rhetoric of calling people who don't believe a harmful ideology bigots might be a good start. Same for those who felt the economy was more important etc etc.

Here you go - they spent 21 million on adds on the issue -

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/18/politics/trump-transgender-attack-ads-harris/index.html

As for what the Democrats should do vis a vis the Republican lies -

The Democrats ARE lying when they say that some men are women.

Their views on this are as bat shit as those who believe the earth is flat.

These lies are harmful to women and children.

What I would expect is that they start addressing reasonable concerns and stop calling women who are worried about this bigots. That would be a good start.

I don't live in the US, I wouldn't have seen ads. You said it was their tagline, and I have not seen it anywhere. And I have followed very many media outlets. It's obviously the only reason you think the Democrats lost. From what I know, I don't agree with that.

I watched endless chats with voters up and down the country, not one said this particular hobby horse of yours. Abortion, reproductive rights, the economy, immigration... yes.

But Duncin has not suggested that people can't vote for a least worst option.

Unless I've missed it further up, she also hasn't called voters "idiots and bigots".

She is highlighting, rightly, that voters decided the least worst option was a sex offender who has already crippled abortion rights and whose team are revelling in their plan to "put kids in cages".

It's like the discussion further up the thread where supposedly people can't vote Democrat because they feel Democrats have lied, but they can vote Trump who lies.

Again, Democrats slinging mud = oh noes this is your downfall.
Republicans slinging mud - yeah I love it.

Yes, it's extremely important to pay attention to about policies. I agree with you on that completely (if that's what you're saying).

But the Republicans didn't need to run Donald Trump to have their policies. If it was just the policies that mattered, they could have run someone who wasn't a sex offender. (I think it's a good bet that the Republican party does have members who aren't sex offenders.)

There is a huge piece missing in understanding this election if we stay silent and don't explore the reasons for this dissonance in addition to looking at policies.

My 'hobbyhorse' as you so very patronisingly put it affects the lives of 51% of the population and is actively chopping off body parts of children in the name of an ideology.

Trump thought it was worth a $21 million ad campaign so your insistence that it wasn't an issue clearly is incorrect.

And as for the people are not talking about it part, have you considered that this is coming off the backdrop of 4 years of a government that has called people 'bigots' for opposing the harms of gender ideology?

I never heard that tagline. Not once. And I was following both campaigns closely. A day didn't go by when I did not catch up with what was going on.

The tagline to that advert was discussed all over social media. By Trump fans and trans rights supporters alike. As pp said he spent millions of dollars on those ads.

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/19/g-s1-28932/donald-trump-transgender-ads-kamala-harris

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/08/us/politics/trump-republican-transgender-ads.html

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/11/02/why-the-trump-campaign-is-spending-heavily-on-ads-on-trans-issues

As always on forums I find the best thing to do is to agree to differ. Which is what I will now do.

So clearly you weren't following as closely as you thought, @BustingBaoBun

Clearly I'm not as clever as you

@DuncinToffee
Many many democrats and moderates feel that the mistreatment of women by Biden's gender changes are an absolutely key issue.

Some may have voted for Trump
but the reality is that Harris got 12 million less votes than Biden got in 2020
so a LOT of people stayed home
(Trump got the same number of votes both times - around 74 million)

WHY did they stay home ?
WHY did the Democrat vote share drop in every single state ?

Until the Democrats realise that telling women to shut up is not progressive
they have a huge problem.

I didn't use the words bigots or idiots, so stop putting words in my mouth

And I certainly don't need your help

I understand that and now they have a government that will ramp up the mistreatment of women,

If they didn't use their vote, they can't complain or blame others.

@lifeturnsonadime - I agree that Dems need to consider what cost them votes and no doubt gender politics will have played a part.

But that is not the only reason they lost. I look forward to more detailed analysis but so far it appears the biggest factor is that people felt poorer.

Do you think we would have had the same result if the booming economy was reflected in gas and food prices?

@DuncinToffee

Well no, but your posts were telling voters that they should 'own' the reasons they voted for Trump' which rather assumes you don't believe that women could vote for Trump without being a MAGA / Trump supporter which is patently untrue.

But no looking back you did not use the quoted words so I apologise for 'putting words into your mouth'.

I still maintain that it is wrong to tell voters to 'own it' by imposing your own ideas for the reason for their vote over their actual reason, when you said this . It's patronising.

When you said this -

I care about women's rights, I care about single spaces, I care about women's sport, I care about bodily autonomy, I care about access to medical care so I wouldn't vote Trump.

you rather implied that women can't have an alternative view.

It is hard to see how, if you care about women's sport, you could vote Harris when the Republican's have removed title IX.

Everything I've seen about why American women voted for Trump has to do with a rejection of what they see as PC culture and concern about their sons repeatedly being painted as sex offenders and misogynists and people not being allowed to express their offensive opinions. This is something I don't personally understand but America just isn't a progressive country - it never has been.

Probably not.

But that isn't really the point I am making. It's more about the general issue wrt to the fact that the Democrats have effectively silenced women on issues that are harmful to 51% of the population and to children.

Commentators talk about it is a being a tiny minority (less than 1%) yet laws being amended to appease this tiny minority are demonstrably harming women and children and gay people.

I don't think it is right to say that the only way a woman can legitimately vote is for the Democrats whilst they maintain this ideology.

It's even harder to see how, if you care about women, you could vote Trump

But here we are

I am not going to agree with you on this single issue and I am not going to further derail this thread with it.

So on the one side we have women don't exist other than as a intangible feeling that any man can claim to have which gives him the right in law to be treated as a woman, access to any space where any vulnerable female might be whether or not she consents to that. We have lesbians called bigots for refusing to date humans formerly known as men (there used to be a word for that kind of behaviour). We have girls losing college scholarships and sporting opportunities and having their skulls bashed in if they continue to play sport under the new title IX rules because, guess what, male bodies are stronger and more likely to harm women in the vast majority of sports. And that's not to mention the vulnerable kids having their body parts removed.

And on the other side we have Trump with all of his 'pussy grabbing' misogyny and the GOP/ religious far right dead set on banning all forms of reproductive rights.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

Women are screwed either way. Both sides are misogynistic.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

Women are screwed either way. Both sides are misogynistic.

This. I would have found it an impossible choice.

There's a book by a NYT reporter called How the World Ran Out of Everything the details the shipping disasters caused by the pandemic and the Suez Canal blockage. It focuses on the other angle of this - what happens when countries are completely dependent on goods from other places and just in time supply chains.

One of the case studies is about a young entrepreneur who has just won a big contract for a startup novelty company to produce some kind of branded Sesame Street toy. It follows him on a journey that starts with him trying to get it manufactured in the US, but the bottom line was that so much of that has been outsourced to China, he literally couldn't find anyone with the existing infrastructure - everyone he approached told him he needed to have it made in China.

Maybe it's just mathematics and the arithmetic mean at work here ?

Speaking of maths, it's interesting how badly out the polls seemed to be. From a predicted knife-edge, to a Trump cakewalk. As a survivor of the UK 1992 general election, I find points of similarity. Only the excuse then was a lack of real time data.

It used to be so lovely here when it was a thread for people who just wanted to see Trump gone and who want to commiserate with like-minded people, as opposed to the 30,000 other threads that @lifeturnsonadime and co. feel the need to monopolise saying the same thing over and over and over.

Sigh.

@BustingBaoBun

I've heard Day of the Jackal is very diverting.

We can all post wherever we like @Wallaw

I was merely pointing out that the Trump "Kamala is for they/them" tagline received a lot of popularity, contrary to pp claim.

Publicity, not popularity

But it was popular too.