How to break bad news - 11+

[GoodIsGoodEnough]

My DC hasn't scored high enough to get into grammar. It was always going to be a long shot with much less tutoring than their peers, but I am still sad for them.

Any advice on how to tell them the news would be appreciated.

Do I give them their real score which is about 30 marks off, or do I say their score was closer (say 10 marks off)?

I hate that at 10 they're going to not feel "good enough". I never wanted the 11+, they got wind of it and wanted to do it. I feel like I've let them down.

I didn't go to grammar and I've read all the stories of people going to comps and doing well, which I'm sure she will, but just looking for some advice on how to handle this immediate situation today.

I can't speak for every child in grammar school.

However, the last time I taught Y6 we had 4 boys and 3 girls who qualified. 1 of the girls was completely shocked as she'd never even considered grammar school really. Of the boys, 3 were very proud of the fact they'd not been tutored at all and were a little bit unkind to the 1 who had had some tutoring, but even then he'd just had a few sessions with a 1-2-1 tutor to familiarise himself with the test, nothing like the hot-housing you required.

I used to take groups of around 10 children for weekly 11+ practise and as I've mentioned further up the thread, there was only 2 or 3 out of each group who were borderline enough for tutoring to make any difference. The rest got the same result they'd have got without tutoring.

Because admitting that your kids needed tutoring is an admission that their kids might not be natural born geniouses. It’s ridiculous. Everybody knows that kids need to be taught how to pass exam technique (with each exam having its own technique), and that they need to learn the syllabus. Seriously. It’s like hearing that somebody gave birth the breech triplets and that it didn’t hurt at all, yeah whatever we believe you…..

Such BS a full 20 % of my son's year went to Oxbridge. The rest all v. good Russell Group Universities. 1 boy left at 16 and another " tanked" his A- levels. This was a year of 150.

@SanctusInDistress

For the last time.

The 11+ is not an exam with a "syllabus", in the way that A-level Chemistry is.

I know you don't like this but the truth is, the children most suited for grammar school are those who fly through the 11+ without preparation. And there are not many of those, but not as few as you think.

Yep similar story in my son's year and the the years below and above.

I don’t like or dislike, but i‘m loving this motherland-type thread. Just imagine I’m Liz and anybody who says their kids got a hand-written chauffeured-delivered acceptance entry letter without even a hint of a tutor are Amanda.

To answer the OPs post, once you stop believing the fantasy that grammar school is full of natural-born geniuses and that unless you go to grammar school you are a social pariah destined to the job centre and get snubbed by the side return and loft extension (basement optional) parents, then you’ll instinctively know how to break the news to your daughter that she’s not got into grammar school.

that’s all.

That seems very excessive. Do you include parents helping with homework in your definition of tutoring?

It depends on the exam. For the grammars around here, it is definitely not general exam technique. For example, at GCSE and A level, I teach my students to scribble down notes as part of exam technique; if a child did that in the 11+, they’d fail because it’s wasting precious milliseconds. In the NVR section, it’s often 14-16s per question - that includes, reading, comprehending, working it out and marking the answer. It requires very specific exam technique to get through the 11+ these days

I know of a RG university who accepted somebody with Es. And I know of non-RG accepting kids with Us!!!

Unis in the UK are desperate for students (since the international postgraduate tap has been greatly turned off, they are desperate for students). If you can write your name, you’re in.

Getting into a RG university in the past 15 years does not have the Kudos it used to have. The next big thing is getting into US universities, that’s where the private-school melee is moving towards.

Nobody has said anything like that and anyone can do well / badly on a given day. Plenty of good students don't go to grammar school as has been made abundantly clear on this thread.

On the flip side, grammar school children pupils are certainly not all geniuses and the tests are not so hard they require you to be one to succeed. Sure, many parents invest in tutoring. Many don't because they can't or don't want to. Their children still relatively frequently get in to grammar school, because it's not a humongous achievement.

The two boys I know in their first year this year certainly didn't! One is asd and his mum had massive trouble getting him to do his homework at all let alone attend tutoring. He sailed through despite his very rubbish school having forgotten to submit his special accommodations request. He absolutely loves grammar school because of all its rules.

The multiple choice style exam just suits some kids, others less. It's no judgement on the child.

If you can write your name, you're in. Total BS. My DS's friend got 4 A stars at A level and ended up taking a gap year to reapply to study Medicine because he didn't get a single offer. Total walk in the park.

Do you think the schools and parents putting their kids in for St Paul’s and Westminster this year are not preparing for their entrance exams on the basis that they’ll fly through?

🤷🤷🤷 How do I know? I mean, they probably are if they have loads of money. They're wasting it either way.

Medicine is different because I think there is a limit to how many spaces they can have as I think it’s very heavily subsidised. Ditto vet I think. I’m not an expert on this but anything that requires clinical placements have strict caps to ensure students can have the mandatory clinical placements.

the children most suited for grammar school are those who fly through the 11+ without preparation

This seems to make sense.

Exactly this!

Okay another example. 3 A stars at A-level offer for computer science at Manchester for a friend's DC. No clinical placement issues there.

Hmmm, i find it hard to believe that somebody with 3 A* did not get to do computer science. Did you see the results slips or is that the results your friend told you? Something doesn’t add up.

Actually, did the child go to grammar or private school? It yes, then the university probably chose a state-educated kid with 3 A (because there’s a lot more merit in getting 3 A in an estate school than in a grammar or private school). I don’t have the energy to explain why, but there’s got to be something different between somebody who has been spoof fed their A levels and somebody who has not.

You’ve got the wrong end of the stick. That was the offer they were given and they met their offer. It adds up perfectly.

some courses are more popular than others. Supply and demand. You can get into a RG university with Es and Ds and Cs if you go through clearing for the less popular courses. You’ve heard about clearing right? This year some universities who don’t typically have clearing did so for tbe first time.

saying ‘I got into a RG university’ these days needs context behind it.

There are plenty of courses that do require high entrance grades and don't go into clearing. Clearing has been around forever. No need to go into contextual offers and widening participation. I understand that and support it. This is way off thread so probably best leave it at that.

a family member got into a RG university to do computer science. I won’t say which one, because, but definitely a red brick. He had been to private school. Failed his AS levels, repeated the year. Got accepted into a RG university to do CS with an E in Maths. Got degree after repeating a year in uni too.

nothing to do with widening participation.

Going to grammar school (or private) means nothing these days (from an academic point of view), except that your parents are 90% likely to have had to put their hands in their pockets to teach their offspring the correct exam technique and to learn all key stage 2 curriculum before the end of year 6.

OP, your daughter is not missing out on anything by not going to grammar, so you can reassure her.

There are CS courses and CS courses. Your point doesn't prove anything here. Also, course reputation counts for much more than whether a university is RG or not. Bath and St Andrews are not RG and that doesn't matter in any case. This is way off thread.

Goodness, what ignorance! Having taught in both types, I can assure you that the spoon fed pupils are the state school ones. It’s one of the reasons that lots of teachers prefer to teach in grammar or independent schools. That doesn’t mean to say that in some ways it’s harder for a state school child to get the grades because there are other challenges that have been placed in their way, like poor behaviour and much larger classes in their younger years.