Young women's boundaries have been eroded so much

[crochetmonkey74]

I'm currently working on an outreach programme for new adults (women only group)
My remit is to work with them on relationships guidance. This week the session has been romantic and sexual relationships. I've been really surprised by their resignation that certain things , although they don't want to do them, can't be disagreed with as that would be "kink shaming."
Several of then are ND so see everything in very binary terms so when I'm working with them and saying some things are more extreme and wouldn't be part of a normal or average sex life, they are very quick to pull me up on the word normal. It's very worrying how little say they think they have in a sexual relationship anymore. I've got a great team and we've all been chatting about how to tackle and redirect, but just thought it was interesting to share/chat about

When you say things they don't want to do "can't be disagreed with" do you mean they end up doing them even though they don't want to? Or that they don't do them, but don't feel they can disagree with others doing them?

They feel like to be reluctant to do them would come over as 'not cool' or kink shaming so feel like they would do the acts, and have to put up with it

Ultimately it's not about kink shaming it's about what you enjoy and are comfortable with

Well, obviously, but I agree with the OP, that younger women feel pressured into doing sexual stuff they don’t like because they’ve been socialised to think that ‘kink shaming’ is a Very Bad Thing. So, they go along with choking and anal because it would be worse to refuse and thereby imply the person who wanted to do those things was ‘wrong’.

Sigh.

I'm a young 70, but sometimes I feel VERY old. Some of the shit that (some) women put up with is incomprehensible to me. I didn't have a clue this was happening IRL before I discovered Mumsnet.

As a mother to a 10yo girl it really worries me. I see young women talking about being choked during sex as though it's expected standard behaviour.

The approach I would take if to reverse the discussion, so if kinks are to be respected then so are boundaries, if everyone is allowed and socially accepted to say and expect to get what they want during sex then that same logic applies to knowing what you don't want and don't like.

They need to understand that sex is a form of communication, that what happens should be agreed and that neither party should feel humiliated or forced to do anything that they don't want to do.

I definitely agree, that said the boundaries have certainly escalated, the pressure to have any sex is a universal through the ages.

The equally sad part is that young men are also being told it is normal and failure to enjoy it is somehow bad. I feel like all the fight that previous generations of women went through to improve the rights of women , like making marital rape a crime , trying to raise awareness of domestic violence is being overwhelmed by this age of proliferation of violent porn and misogynistic culture .

I had to remove myself from a group on Facebook, it was defined as sexually positive.

Young women posting pictures of horrific bruising and scarring. Talking about CNC, as if it's normal run of the mill sexual enjoyment. And you absolutely could not ask questions or comment anything they deemed derogatory.

I finally left when a young woman described her and her partner going into wood and creating a rape scene where he chased her, hurt her etc.

I find it very difficult to believe all these young women want this, never mind enjoy it.

I despise the current sexual culture. Men have strangled me, hurt me, spat on me etc without consent or any indication at all that I would be into any of it.

I don't date anymore.

I am terrified for my daughter's. I have had conversations with my eldest who's 18 about consent both ways. But I still worry, as already discussed that it's seen as not cool, or kink shaming. I've had conversations with my 10 year old obviously age appropriate, and will eventually have the same conversations I have had with my 18 year old.

Talking about CNC, as if it's normal run of the mill sexual enjoyment.

What's CNC?

Consensual Non-Consent. Usually agreeing to be 'raped'.

I agree with this. It’s genuinely horrifying. What happened to women’s rights?

My stock response to "kink shaming" and "don't yuck another person's yum" is:

Some kinks deserve to be shamed. Shame is a good thing at a societal level. Their yum is yucking on my life and I will not be told to sit down, shut up and accept it.

It scares me how much has changed from my generation (am 35). Most people were aware of these kind of acts but it was never expected that you would do them! If it was ever brought up if you said you weren’t into that any man I was with would just shrug and say “no problem.” It feels like things have gone backwards from the 00’s in some ways, yes we were still treated badly, put up with a lot of harassment we shouldn’t & there have been some really positive changes since I was a teenager, but these girls must feel so must pressure to go along with things they aren’t comfortable with, with boys who don’t really know what they are doing, just copying what they have seen in porn.

Exposure to more and more extreme porn must be to blame. 20 years ago when teenage boys were discovering sex it was pictures in a magazine, someone’s dodgy video (or if you were my brothers, getting caught downloading topless photos on dial up). Now the first page on any free porn site is rough anal sex, choking. Most have been exposed to extreme sexual practices before they’ve even touched a real girl.

How do we counter it though? Educate our children, yes, but it's out there now. How do we encourage a more conservative society - because that is what we need to happen.

Was just coming here to say this. I'm the same age as you and I completely agree! Particularly the idea that anal sex is a common and expected part of sex between a man and a woman is completely baffling to me. I could understand a shift in the direction of more couples wanting to experiment with penetrating the man to expand their menu, but oh no, of course it's not that!

Completely agree, what we are seeing is the impact of Queer Theory. Normalisation of hardcore porn and the erosion of all boundaries for girls which is a product of trans activism, plus the normalisation of sexualised behaviours for children (drag queen story time). These things are all linked and deliberate.

It is very difficult to teach our daughters to have boundaries when we & they are (at best) accused of pearl clutching or more likely accused of bigotry, for trying to defend those boundaries.

ND teens are very vulnerable to this, both male and female. It's extremely difficult to tackle as they don't approach adults for direction in this area, particularly when they sense that there's something wrong with the practices but they're convinced it's them.

This whole kink shaming situation is just an excuse to green light a whole load of horrible acts. But if you have a problem with it, you’re the problem. I’ve heard of ‘age gap kink’ which is just an attempt at normalising CSA. It’s alarming.

Edited to add that I am ND as well and as a younger woman yes this was a minefield, we are very vulnerable. I’m much more knowledgeable now and a stronger self-advocate so it is an important area to work with ND young woman!

The young girls I worked with have described hair pulling during sex as the norm . One described a penis being pushed down her throat and her boyfriend getting off to the sound of her gagging . I think men see sex differently to women. I did say to these girls that is not right and they are having their boundaries pushed .

On a certain universal popular porn site it has videos describing women's vaginas being ripped apart because the man's penis is so big ! Disgusting. It's the effect watching this stuff has on young men's minds , possibly seeing it as the norm is quite worrying.

Mary Whitehouse all those years ago had a point didn't she , despite being laughed . She warned about the effect porn was having on young minds . She was right .

OP, suggest the girls mirror the behaviour back to their partners:
eg
You want anal? Let’s try it on you first. What size strap on should I use?

You want choking?Let’s try it on you first. how long shall I restrict your breathing?
etc etc

my strong suspicion is their male partners will have no qualms about refusing, which will help adjust their mindsets, showing these girls that people can refuse (& that they’ve been fed a lot of nonsense regarding “kink-shaming”)

I mean, I don’t exactly think this is new though. I’m mid 40s, went to a very progressive all girls school, very feminist, my friends from school were educated, middle class, exactly who you would think of as ‘empowered’ young women. And we were all absolutely doing things that we didn’t want to do back in the 90s and not really feeling like we could kick up a fuss about it. It’s not like young women have always been safe from men and empowered to speak up for themselves and then queer ideology and trans people and kink came along and took that away from us. 🙄

"pearl clutching" needs to be made acceptable. Stop calling it pearl clutching and reframe it for what it is, maintaining boundaries. Boundaries are fashionable too...

and men @artictern!

Yes men as well! Just mentioned working with women due to the OPs women only group.