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Young women's boundaries have been eroded so much

179 replies

crochetmonkey74 · 24/09/2024 08:01

I'm currently working on an outreach programme for new adults (women only group)
My remit is to work with them on relationships guidance. This week the session has been romantic and sexual relationships. I've been really surprised by their resignation that certain things , although they don't want to do them, can't be disagreed with as that would be "kink shaming."
Several of then are ND so see everything in very binary terms so when I'm working with them and saying some things are more extreme and wouldn't be part of a normal or average sex life, they are very quick to pull me up on the word normal. It's very worrying how little say they think they have in a sexual relationship anymore. I've got a great team and we've all been chatting about how to tackle and redirect, but just thought it was interesting to share/chat about

OP posts:
DiaAssolellat · 24/09/2024 12:05

Jellycatspyjamas · 24/09/2024 11:50

Whatever happened to sex being about pleasure, enjoyment, connection rather than humiliation and power? My DD is 13 and I'm already needing to talk about safe/unsafe sexual practices because the chat at school is all about choking, anal, deep throating etc and while I know she's not sexually active her boundaries are being eroded ahead of time.

I miss the days when safer sex meant using a condom.

It’s terrifying that these practices have become so normalised.

Tophelleborine · 24/09/2024 12:06

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:04

What if they both enjoy breath play?

Fuck off with breath play. It's choking, it's dangerous and it shouldn't be normalised. Damn right I'm going to "kink shame" choking.

crochetmonkey74 · 24/09/2024 12:07

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:04

What if they both enjoy breath play?

Not a normal or average act.

Really worrying, particularly for women

OP posts:
mrsmalaprop · 24/09/2024 12:08

Talking about consent isn't enough here. Girls are consenting to this stuff because they think they should.

I was pressured into having sex for the first time before I was ready. I did consent, but I had my own internal pressure going on.

It's the girls' own perception of what a healthy sex life means that needs to change. Teen girls have probably never been well equipped to lay down their own boundaries due to socialisation, but the 'be kind and non-judgmental' messages have made it so much worse.

I agree with a poster above. Safety is a good way to go. Anal is not safe with a clumsy young boy who doesn't know the damage he could cause and thinks it's like porn.

Gagging, choking - not safe.

If it hurts, it's not safe. Maybe we need to teach girls how special their bodies are and that they need to be treated with love and care by both themselves and their partners.

artictern · 24/09/2024 12:08

Breath play, what a lovely euphemism!! 🤮

DiaAssolellat · 24/09/2024 12:08

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:04

What if they both enjoy breath play?

Breath play? Oh it’s all such jolly japes to have a man put his hands around my neck and start squeezing.

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:08

Tophelleborine · 24/09/2024 12:06

Fuck off with breath play. It's choking, it's dangerous and it shouldn't be normalised. Damn right I'm going to "kink shame" choking.

People are allowed to enjoy whatever they like in their sex lives; you're not the sex police.

SadeYourLoveIsKing · 24/09/2024 12:08

Culture and Cycle of conditioning.

Growing up in England from a non-English, religious background, I've seen some unhealthy trends in how girls are raised in both cultures. In the West girls are encouraged to embrace a so called "freedom" which often means casual sex with little regard for their own feelings, safety or chastity.

You see women dressing revealingly and drinking with random men on nights out. Divorce parties, acting like abortion is equivalent to having a tooth filled, competition with men to do what they do. Reality TV shows that teen girls are hooked on where people date and kiss multiple different people and even have sex in dimly lit rooms on screen, and judge women fiercely on their looks alone. Depicting chastity as outmoded or even harmful. Multiple partners, slapping kinks, "sex work".

So why are girls today pretending they like this? Teen girls are conformist. They keep each other in check. They make sure everyone is toeing the line and push each other to follow trends even if they don't like them, so if rough sex is 'normal', they will insist on it even if it doesn't sit well with them. If having sex without commitment is 'normal' they will pursue it then hide their true feelings in tittok reposts. Its all very confusing for girls.
"I just don’t get it! I had the casual sex and abortion he asked for, so why am I feeling severely depressed about it? And why isn't he opening my snaps? Isn't this what I'm supposed to do?" They want to please the boys they like, they want to be deeply desired, and they think that's what it means. They confuse sexual desire even sexual roughness with love.

I suspect an aspect of the rough sex kink reflects a longstanding desire women have across time and place for a dominant partner. Boys aren't entirely to blame here. Girls will often taunt boys for being effete if they refuse to be dominant with them. They make tittok posts about wanting a possessive BF.

There’s a bizarre clash of messages being sent: boys, please slap me; and boys, you’re an evil dictator if you disapprove of my revealing outfits. Girls, give me a bj and don’t expect a text back the next day; yet, girls, you all act like sluts, I want a "trad" girl from a different culture.

Girls like to imagine themselves as the prized possession of a fierce, envious, yet valiant Knight. Fine. Boys envision a hot virgin who melts in a puddle at their feet and serves them sexually. We can all dream. These dreams represent extremes of our desires: seeking security and safety from men and purity from women. But the reality is that culture determines which how these yearnings are fulfilled or dealt with, and right now, girls are bearing the more heavy cost.

"I just don’t get it! I did everything I was supposed to do, so why isn’t he into me?" playing nice, being agreeable, following all the 'rules', conforming to the culture. Only to end up broken and lost because the culture is there for male and corporate pleasure and the illusion of our liberation. Men love easy access to quick sex via dating apps. They love not having to earn intimacy. They love being given access to your body, while you shout, "empowerment!" They love that if you get pregnant from their no-condom preference, you'll have the abortion they request so they remain unburdened. And you'll declare you're fine with that because it's your right. But they also resent it. They resent that women are not chaste anymore. Again more confusion and mixed messages. Men in the West pretend that they like the idea of marrying a woman who has slept with the town, if they don't they know they will be labeled misogynist. They may even be cancelled. Likewise they have to suppress being uncomfortable with their girlfriend going out wearing shorts up the bum because asking her to change would make him sexist and controlling.

One more thing I want to say. Honestly, I just really love England and its people and want the best, but the truth is men from other cultures see Western girls as easy and you should know this. Especially with multiculturalism. I remember at school English girls coming back from Turkey talking about how much attention they got from Turkish guys. They thought it was because they were super attractive and irresistibly beautiful, but the truth is, some men view Western women as just something fun to experience. Recreational. In part of curse because of abhorrent sexism but also because Western culture says girls are always 'up for it', while girls from their own culture are seen as 'wife material.' It's tough to convince non-Western men—who've watched Love Island, seen drunk Western girls kiss strangers in bikinis, consumed our magazines and music glorifying OnlyFans and porn—that Western girls aren't easy, that they have boundaries and self-respect. That they are protected against men like them. If you take the doors off a beautiful house, it becomes a playground, not a sanctuary; open to all but cherished by none.

Finding a cultural balance that satisfies everyone is tough, maybe even impossible. But clearly girls today are not happy with this particular flavour of freedom, and those that say that are are faking it.

But here's the thing. Bringing back kink shaming opens the door to slut shaming too. I for one am skeptical that the English are ready for that shift, yet.

crochetmonkey74 · 24/09/2024 12:09

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:08

People are allowed to enjoy whatever they like in their sex lives; you're not the sex police.

People are not the sex police but people are not in fact allowed to do anything they enjoy. There are already laws governing this so that vulnerable partners can be protected

OP posts:
trythisforsize · 24/09/2024 12:10

As well as helping our daughters set and strengthen their boundaries, we need to be having some hard line conversations about expectations around sex to our sons.
My son is 14 and I have already had several chats with him about respect, natural bodies, boundaries, consent and that sex is a way to feel close and bond with someone - not an excuse to try out every dangerous and degrading act you hear about.

There's an increasingly blurred and broken line between coercion and consent.

Coulditbeperimenopause · 24/09/2024 12:10

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:04

What if they both enjoy breath play?

Fuck off with that language. It's not play it's dangerous behaviour that can kill.

Coulditbeperimenopause · 24/09/2024 12:11

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:08

People are allowed to enjoy whatever they like in their sex lives; you're not the sex police.

You cannot legally consent to being harmed during sex.

SaulHudsonDavidJones · 24/09/2024 12:11

Totally agree with you and as a mum to a daughter I want to make sure she is very clear about autonomy and doing what she wants rather than what's expected or 'cool'. Fuck kink shaming if it goes against what she wants.

crochetmonkey74 · 24/09/2024 12:11

SaulHudsonDavidJones · 24/09/2024 12:11

Totally agree with you and as a mum to a daughter I want to make sure she is very clear about autonomy and doing what she wants rather than what's expected or 'cool'. Fuck kink shaming if it goes against what she wants.

My worry is that they are being influenced about what they think they want

OP posts:
jolies1 · 24/09/2024 12:12

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:04

What if they both enjoy breath play?

I think we all know there is a difference between two experienced adults who have done their research, understands the risks & has learnt how to take part in “breath play” safely and a young person who has seen choking on porn and thinks it’s mainstream and normal.

Coulditbeperimenopause · 24/09/2024 12:12

Are we now needing to add "if you're not ready to murder don't have sex" into the "if you're not ready to have a child don't have sex" conversation?

poppyzbrite4 · 24/09/2024 12:14

crochetmonkey74 · 24/09/2024 12:09

People are not the sex police but people are not in fact allowed to do anything they enjoy. There are already laws governing this so that vulnerable partners can be protected

What do you mean 'vulnerable partners'? I'm not talking about kicking the living shit out of someone and calling that rough sex but what's outlawed in the bedroom? I'm interested. I didn't realise anything consensual (within reason) was outlawed.

jolies1 · 24/09/2024 12:15

mrsmalaprop · 24/09/2024 12:08

Talking about consent isn't enough here. Girls are consenting to this stuff because they think they should.

I was pressured into having sex for the first time before I was ready. I did consent, but I had my own internal pressure going on.

It's the girls' own perception of what a healthy sex life means that needs to change. Teen girls have probably never been well equipped to lay down their own boundaries due to socialisation, but the 'be kind and non-judgmental' messages have made it so much worse.

I agree with a poster above. Safety is a good way to go. Anal is not safe with a clumsy young boy who doesn't know the damage he could cause and thinks it's like porn.

Gagging, choking - not safe.

If it hurts, it's not safe. Maybe we need to teach girls how special their bodies are and that they need to be treated with love and care by both themselves and their partners.

Absolutely this. I probably had sex before I was ready because I felt a certain degree of peer-pressure to do so. A minute or two of straightforward sex with teenage boyfriends has done me absolutely no physical harm. A clumsy teenage boy copying something he has seen online and subjecting his partner to rough anal sex could cause them lasting damage.

Coulditbeperimenopause · 24/09/2024 12:17

Can Mumsnet ask a site/company throw it's weight behind this somehow?

Tophelleborine · 24/09/2024 12:17

It's not about being the sex police, it's about saying I want to live in a society where risky, painful and potentially deadly sex practices remain taboo and are not normalised or expected. The baseline for sex should be that it's loving, safe and pleasurable, not frightening or harmful. If freely consenting, fully informed adults want to deviate from that in private then that's their choice (up to a point), but it absolutely shouldn't be mainstream.

jolies1 · 24/09/2024 12:19

Tophelleborine · 24/09/2024 12:17

It's not about being the sex police, it's about saying I want to live in a society where risky, painful and potentially deadly sex practices remain taboo and are not normalised or expected. The baseline for sex should be that it's loving, safe and pleasurable, not frightening or harmful. If freely consenting, fully informed adults want to deviate from that in private then that's their choice (up to a point), but it absolutely shouldn't be mainstream.

Even if they are not taboo, an understanding that they are not straightforward or safe acts to take part in without proper discussion, research and preparation, they should not automatically be on the table.

Tophelleborine · 24/09/2024 12:23

jolies1 · 24/09/2024 12:19

Even if they are not taboo, an understanding that they are not straightforward or safe acts to take part in without proper discussion, research and preparation, they should not automatically be on the table.

I see where you're coming from, but I think taboos can be useful. By presenting eg choking as a neutral act that just needs a bit more research and preparation, there's still a strong risk that girls and young women will feel pressure that they should be prepared to at least explore things they aren't comfortable with. A societal message that says "these acts are not normal or healthy for the vast majority of people" removes a lot of that pressure. If that makes me a prude (or a kink-shamer) then I'm ok with that.

LoobyDoop2 · 24/09/2024 12:24

SadeYourLoveIsKing · 24/09/2024 12:08

Culture and Cycle of conditioning.

Growing up in England from a non-English, religious background, I've seen some unhealthy trends in how girls are raised in both cultures. In the West girls are encouraged to embrace a so called "freedom" which often means casual sex with little regard for their own feelings, safety or chastity.

You see women dressing revealingly and drinking with random men on nights out. Divorce parties, acting like abortion is equivalent to having a tooth filled, competition with men to do what they do. Reality TV shows that teen girls are hooked on where people date and kiss multiple different people and even have sex in dimly lit rooms on screen, and judge women fiercely on their looks alone. Depicting chastity as outmoded or even harmful. Multiple partners, slapping kinks, "sex work".

So why are girls today pretending they like this? Teen girls are conformist. They keep each other in check. They make sure everyone is toeing the line and push each other to follow trends even if they don't like them, so if rough sex is 'normal', they will insist on it even if it doesn't sit well with them. If having sex without commitment is 'normal' they will pursue it then hide their true feelings in tittok reposts. Its all very confusing for girls.
"I just don’t get it! I had the casual sex and abortion he asked for, so why am I feeling severely depressed about it? And why isn't he opening my snaps? Isn't this what I'm supposed to do?" They want to please the boys they like, they want to be deeply desired, and they think that's what it means. They confuse sexual desire even sexual roughness with love.

I suspect an aspect of the rough sex kink reflects a longstanding desire women have across time and place for a dominant partner. Boys aren't entirely to blame here. Girls will often taunt boys for being effete if they refuse to be dominant with them. They make tittok posts about wanting a possessive BF.

There’s a bizarre clash of messages being sent: boys, please slap me; and boys, you’re an evil dictator if you disapprove of my revealing outfits. Girls, give me a bj and don’t expect a text back the next day; yet, girls, you all act like sluts, I want a "trad" girl from a different culture.

Girls like to imagine themselves as the prized possession of a fierce, envious, yet valiant Knight. Fine. Boys envision a hot virgin who melts in a puddle at their feet and serves them sexually. We can all dream. These dreams represent extremes of our desires: seeking security and safety from men and purity from women. But the reality is that culture determines which how these yearnings are fulfilled or dealt with, and right now, girls are bearing the more heavy cost.

"I just don’t get it! I did everything I was supposed to do, so why isn’t he into me?" playing nice, being agreeable, following all the 'rules', conforming to the culture. Only to end up broken and lost because the culture is there for male and corporate pleasure and the illusion of our liberation. Men love easy access to quick sex via dating apps. They love not having to earn intimacy. They love being given access to your body, while you shout, "empowerment!" They love that if you get pregnant from their no-condom preference, you'll have the abortion they request so they remain unburdened. And you'll declare you're fine with that because it's your right. But they also resent it. They resent that women are not chaste anymore. Again more confusion and mixed messages. Men in the West pretend that they like the idea of marrying a woman who has slept with the town, if they don't they know they will be labeled misogynist. They may even be cancelled. Likewise they have to suppress being uncomfortable with their girlfriend going out wearing shorts up the bum because asking her to change would make him sexist and controlling.

One more thing I want to say. Honestly, I just really love England and its people and want the best, but the truth is men from other cultures see Western girls as easy and you should know this. Especially with multiculturalism. I remember at school English girls coming back from Turkey talking about how much attention they got from Turkish guys. They thought it was because they were super attractive and irresistibly beautiful, but the truth is, some men view Western women as just something fun to experience. Recreational. In part of curse because of abhorrent sexism but also because Western culture says girls are always 'up for it', while girls from their own culture are seen as 'wife material.' It's tough to convince non-Western men—who've watched Love Island, seen drunk Western girls kiss strangers in bikinis, consumed our magazines and music glorifying OnlyFans and porn—that Western girls aren't easy, that they have boundaries and self-respect. That they are protected against men like them. If you take the doors off a beautiful house, it becomes a playground, not a sanctuary; open to all but cherished by none.

Finding a cultural balance that satisfies everyone is tough, maybe even impossible. But clearly girls today are not happy with this particular flavour of freedom, and those that say that are are faking it.

But here's the thing. Bringing back kink shaming opens the door to slut shaming too. I for one am skeptical that the English are ready for that shift, yet.

First rule of misogyny: women are responsible for what men do. That’s what you’re preaching.

spicysugar · 24/09/2024 12:25

Surf2Live · 24/09/2024 10:33

I think this is the effect of 24/7 violent online porn. I'm increasingly of the opinion that it needs to be banned and blocked. All of it. And we need plenty of work done for young people to recognise healthy sexual relationships and assert boundaries, both males and females but especially young girls. Work like the OP is doing.

The only place in politics or corporate leadership I've ever seen to suggest banning online porn is the Project 2025 document. That's just sad.

I'm old enough now to see that in society the pendulum swings from one extreme to another. Currently we're at a highly permissive and violent swing. I hope it will swing back the other way but I fear women will lose out at both ends of the pendulum.

I think we need a women's revolution. The old fashioned kind of women, the ones without penises.

The trouble is that the women that run these organisations are often so careful to be more woke than the next person that they don't see the experience of women in general as being important.

So depressed a few years ago when attending a workshop for international women's day. The introductory speech was all about prioritising transwomen as they're more vulnerable. None of the events were about the experience of women in general and the kind of universal issues women face and how to tackle them and gain greater support.

How are you going to address the kind of challenges particularly young women face when the people supposedly representing them don't even care?

PaminaMozart · 24/09/2024 12:26

OhNoOhYesOhMy · 24/09/2024 11:59

It's porn. Boys watch it before they've learnt anything at all about real relationships.

This is so true.

Whatever happened to sex being about pleasure, enjoyment, connection rather than humiliation and power?

Quite. I feel really sad when I read some of the threads on MN, be it in Relationships, or relationship-related threads on Chat or AIBU. It's a world I don't recognise.

My husband and I have been together for over 50 years. Lots of ups and downs along the way...... I could write a book. But the glue, the pleasure, enjoyment, connection - sexually, emotionally, intellectually - was always there, so I feel confident we'll go the distance.

I'm glad I don't have daughters. Being a woman nowadays seems much more fraught than in my day. More legally enshrined rights, but also so much more potential risks. I cannot think of a better way of navigating these treacherous waters than to be truly independent, never relying on a man, and shoring up boundaries every step of the way.

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