Young women's boundaries have been eroded so much

[crochetmonkey74]

I'm currently working on an outreach programme for new adults (women only group)
My remit is to work with them on relationships guidance. This week the session has been romantic and sexual relationships. I've been really surprised by their resignation that certain things , although they don't want to do them, can't be disagreed with as that would be "kink shaming."
Several of then are ND so see everything in very binary terms so when I'm working with them and saying some things are more extreme and wouldn't be part of a normal or average sex life, they are very quick to pull me up on the word normal. It's very worrying how little say they think they have in a sexual relationship anymore. I've got a great team and we've all been chatting about how to tackle and redirect, but just thought it was interesting to share/chat about

yeah but think of the things that we put up with! Sexual harassment and worse all over the place. Society told us we were trouble makers or uncool or just wouldn’t be believed and it took us decades (centuries, in fact) to have an impact and change this. and I’m younger than you but it was still rife.

to be honest thinking about it, isn’t this just another way for arseholes to take advantage? Can’t easily sexually harass people any more and get away with it so now let’s make them feel like they’re being bigots if they stand up and say something’s wrong.

but you’re right - lots of this spiel is coming from young women. Buying into it. Like “oh you can’t say shitting on people is wrong as that would be kink shaming” or “oh isn’t everyone a bigot if they think a man with a penis isn’t actually a woman just because they say so”

as always, society won’t allow women freedom of speech. And it’s egged on by bad women or women who are too afraid to speak out and just go along to look liberal and kind.

This.

Lots of things absolutely should be shamed.

What a shit show has been brought about.

I think that part of it still comes from teenage boys bragging about what they have got up to, in a bid to appear mature. It starts there. They're not told that it's actually immature to brag. So it's that same old culture of girls being categorised into sluts or frigid. I don't feel as though kids are told what mature or grown up behaviour in a relationship actually looks like. My son is 13 and I recently heard what another boy his age had been getting up to with his girlfriend on the grapevine. I told my son that, when he does one day get into a relationship, that maturity is about discretion, trust and consent. I also reminded him that If he didn't want me hearing about stuff that he's got up to, then he needs to be discreet. I told him to say that "a gentleman never tells" or "i prefer to keep things private".

That's great. Language is everything. And even the word 'safe' itself lands a little bit hard but... it's a really straightforward, does-what-it-says-on-the-box word, which ND people in particular respond well to.

Maybe parents should be educating daughters to say no, the idea that girls don't have any brains and just goes on with what boys want infantises them

They to use their brains work out what they want and go with that

They do not have any less brains cells then boys

As a bi woman who's primarily dated women I don't recognise this at all.

This thread is the conversation we need to be having with young people. Challenge them and their views.
How would you feel if you hurt someone?
Did you know you can't consent to being hurt/beaten and if you hit or hurt someone during sex it's assault?
Why don't you feel able to say no?
Why are someone else's feelings more important than yours? They aren't considering your feelings and don't care about upsetting you so why should you worry about upsetting them?

Don't TELL young people or you'll hit a brick wall, question them gently and let them draw their own conclusions.

And that's ok. I didn't recognise a PPs experience of online dating.

Whatever happened to sex being about pleasure, enjoyment, connection rather than humiliation and power? My DD is 13 and I'm already needing to talk about safe/unsafe sexual practices because the chat at school is all about choking, anal, deep throating etc and while I know she's not sexually active her boundaries are being eroded ahead of time.

I miss the days when safer sex meant using a condom.

Keep bringing the conversation back to "that's not normal" "people get hurt" "that is not what is expected in a relationship" "if a man asks you to do that get up, get out, get help"

I think women are being forced to be complicit in their own abuse under thr guise of being 'cool kind and inclusive'
Part of our work is also about representation, and as an aside in our planning of the sessions - we realised that a lot of kids programmes now don't have the feistiness of kids programmes when we were small. There were female characters with voices and opinions (slightly off the topic) it seems like 'be kind' has come to mean to everyone else apart from yourself (for women)

It's not about having brains.

It's about being young and maybe not fully confident, a little insecure. Thinking that if you don't do this thing that this boy you really like wants, then he'll find someone else who will.

There's nothing wrong with my brain, but I was like that when I was young. There was something I didn't like doing that was seen as "normal" so I did it. The issue now is that dangerous practices are seen as "normal" which means young women do feel pressure to do them.

Maybe you were never like that, but plenty are. If anything, it's more about trying to inspire confidence in young women.

Surely it's about educating both sexes. Teaching boys that they must have enthusiastic consent in the bedroom and that girls have every right to say no to anything they don't like and to remove themselves from the relationship if causes any problem.

The problem is they think we are old 'Karens' (we are not, we are mixed gender and age providers)
We need a way of reframing it

Ask them how they'd feel if they killed or seriously injured/were killed or seriously injured by someone they loved during a sex act.

It's not about brains. It's about their default perception of what is normal being turned up a notch to include extreme practices.

It's porn. Boys watch it before they've learnt anything at all about real relationships.

I find this massively depressing.

When I was young, the overt misogyny and public objectification was much greater. The catcalling as a teen was horrific and an almost daily occurrence.

Men seem to have got the message that openly shouting stuff at women is socially unacceptable (it still happens, of course, but my daughter says she has never been whistled at from a building site), but that has been replaced with misogyny and objectification in relationships. Random men now treat women with slightly more respect than the men we care about and trust enough to sleep with.

Porn is a scourge. I wish we could put that rancid toothpaste back in the tube.

Not quite
Enthusiastic consent is of course great. This is more about the expectations of what should be on the table. Understanding the acts are extreme, not average

Surely someone can suggest whatever they like, it's about teaching girls that they have a right to say no and have that right respected and that the boy has to have enthusiastic consent.

It's so sad. I'm mid 40s & have a 7yo DD. I was only saying to my own mum recently that, despite all the supposed progress over my lifetime, I feel my DD has it much worse than I did in this regard. My mum was surprised & doubtful, as I think many people who haven't been exposed to dating recently would be. I also have a 9yo DS & would love to know how best to bring him up to be a respectful partner in the current climate. A friend works in mental health in schools (& also has young sons) and says very matter of factly that kids get their sex education from porn these days, shrugs & says that's just the way it is. Surely something can be done 😔

I disagree. I think men shouldn't be able to suggest choking a woman during sex.

I think men need a return to what is a normal expectation of sex. For their own mental and physical health too, not only women's safety

Totally agree.

What if they both enjoy breath play?