DH wants to move back to New Zealand

[Mightypen]

Trigger warning: we are OK off financially and I know this rationally so please do not read if moaning middle classes annoy you!

We both spent our formative years in NZ and DH was born there so has more of a pull… We moved over to the UK in our 20s.

DH thinks UK is in a dire economic and demographic position and the middle to well off will end up having to pay to bail us out from already taxed income. The rich have already left or have locked down their assets and protected themselves.

DH points out NZ has no stamp duty, virtually no capital gains tax, no inheritance tax. There is a reason millionaires are flocking there (we are not multi millionaires!). The NHS will be even more pressured as we reach old age and I wouldn’t be surprised if they stopped state pensions for anyone who owns a house worth over a certain amount or has, say, whatever the equivalent of £10k is in a savings account.

All dire predictions and catastrophising on my part has come true in recent years eg Brexit, Trump etc.

We (or our children) upon our demise will be handing over hundreds of thousands to the govt of already taxed income. Like many, the last few years have seen our standard of living drop. We are really lucky not to be anywhere near destitute or homeless. But there is no spare cash for any of the extras that made life fun. I can’t afford to pay more into my pension and I really should… there is no real scope to go beyond treading water.

The things that seemed realistic just a couple of years ago are out of reach now eg moving to our dream property.

I can see his point and agree we will be snookered here in old age. The main upside I can see of NZ is it beautiful, has great people and is further out of reach if we have nuclear war. BUT it’s dull and far away.

We have 2 DCs, a tween and early teen (years 6 and 8). They go to great schools which we are paying enormous sums for (sorry) and are getting the sort of opportunities we could only dream of in our youth. If we went back, we could send them to local schools where they at least have playing fields (we live in a city here). I don’t think private schools there offer the same value.

DH thinks we should cut our losses in the UK, sell up and resettle in NZ. He never used to feel like this and was always realistic about NZ’s strengths and weaknesses and the UK’s but he’s now very down on the UK.

The DC eulogise NZ as they have grown up with no close relatives here so think it must be amazing and they would live in sunshine forever more.

I remember it as boring, expensive with poor housing and a tad pretentious (in the circles I mixed in - prob as it was so small). Jobs and wealth were even more dependent on being connected whereas in the UK, if you have the skills, you can carve out a decent and interesting career.

Travel from NZ is expensive unless you want a trip
to Australia or the Pacific Islands. Asia is a short haul trip
and it’s at least 12 hours away…

I love European culture, food, history, architecture and nature. This continent has so much diversity and it’s just a short flight or even drive away. We would NEVER have access to this in NZ. I envisage my retirement as being filled with jaunts to the south of France in September, truffle gathering in Croatia in the autumn, long walks on Sardinian beaches in June, ambling through Seville during orange blossom season, island hopping in Greece in May, Christmas markets in Austria and Germany, summer trips to the Alps, short breaks to Budapest and Berlin…, revisiting the Hermitage in off season (if there is such a thing and if it is ever safe to go to Russia again).

Then there is the small matter of resettling DC. If we don’t go in the next year, it will be too late (and I doubt we can sell up by then). If we wait until DC have finished school, then we will
live on the other side of the world from them. Even if we move
them now, they will probably drift back to the UK for a few years at the very least in their 20s.

I’ve pointed all this out… what more can I say to convince DH this is a bad idea? Or am I wrong? Is there an alternative place I could propose to him? I don’t think anywhere is utopia. But is there anywhere better than here or NZ?

@keepforgetting1 TW because everyone someone on decent before tax income moans on Mumsnet or admits they fund their DC education directly, they get attacked! I acknowledge private education is a divisive topic and complaining when you are housed and fed during a cost of living crisis can be insensitive. Oh and I’m very weird!

NZ is a very different country to how it was decades ago.

Have you looked at the job market and the price of housing? The job market is dire and housing is not cheap. I'm not sure it is the answer to your DH's concerns. I love NZ but wouldn't move back there permanently.

NZ has its own issues at the moment that are just as bad.

Grass isn't always greener.

Thanks @Tradersinsnow. DH is early 50s and in a steady job. He’s not at all entrepreneurial yet you need to be in NZ. He is resigned to not working if we go back and somehow living off investments (which I don’t think are enough!) or scaling back our lifestyle…

When did you leave? I know housing is crazy money but we would have about $3-4m kiwi. And I also know that would not buy us much in Auckland! But interesting to hear about the job market and wider economy.

I am personally of the opinion that nowhere is immune to the various problems humanity faces. So you can face them in a place you like or a place that bores you.
I'm not in your fortunate position but I've genuinely got no judgement about you being better off! If I had your opportunities I'd stay here. I share all of your feelings about the value of European culture.
There's this, as you have said; what if you moved and the kids, as they got older, wanted to come back? Where would that leave you? This seems to me both the most likely scenario and the biggest source of potential regret.
You really sound like you don't want to go @Mightypen
I think you need to dig your heels in.

What are the issues @DarkandStormyNightie ?

I have some friends in NZ. They say that food is incredibly expensive. More expensive than the UK.

You sound lovely @heldinadream . I’m only conscious of being ‘better off’ as we both grew up with no financial stability. I’m worse off than many of my friends but that’s a London thing!

I’ve also pointed out NZ is likely to introduce all of these taxes in the years ahead and we may not always have a punitive government. Not trying to be party political: I remember when capital gains tax on rental properties was lowered by a Labour chancellor - I think it was Alistair Darling (RIP).

Food has always been extortionate and all the best produce and meat is exported @EngineEngineNumber9 . Restaurants on average are better there! But there is the small problem of affording to eat out.

Have you actually been there recently with open eyes?

I relate to views on NZ. We lived for a while, left in 2015. Housing is (or was then) poor quality and not built for the very real winters they have (so many people think it's permanently summer in NZ!). And I was sooo bored a lot of the time. There's only so much hiking you can do, and we are outdoors people. Also worth remembering lots of young adults leave NZ, so your kids may leave and you and dh be left there.

Yes we felt wealthier there, but it wasn't worth it, I felt so isolated and miserable.

Wow I don't think that kind of money would let him basically retire so early in NZ. Would that sit OK with you if you are working?

We left in 1999 but go back regularly and have a lot of family there. The current government is steering NZ into austerity and it's a bit of a concern especially if you are looking at Auckland.

I last went four years ago for a close family funeral @DuckBee . I know there has been tension over Covid and culture wars but not really followed daily life there as I had no interest in living there!

On a light note, I couldn't live without double glazing and decent insulation! My friends in New Zealand seem to spend half their lives feeling very cold and mopping up condensation! It's kind of bizarre to me.

Most of my late husband's lovely family are in Australia. We considered joining them before we had our children, but decided against for similar reasons. The isolation etc. When we had children, I had a minor pang of regret, because I do think it's a far better place to bring up children. But my now adult kids love having easy access to a variety (and multitude) of different places and types of scenery in the UK, and Europe, too.

Good point @Tradersinsnow . That sum is just for main house but we have maybe 2m more (kiwi not pounds sadly - more his than my low one) in pensions and a bit more in investments. NZ state pension is more generous than here and based on residency so we would get that eventually.

My best friend moved back home to NZ 4 years ago from London, lives in Auckland. The cost of property is eye watering and living costs are way more than the UK and wages don't reflect that (and she works in a niche industry) I remember her telling me a small punnet of mushrooms from a regular store set her back the equivalent of £6. As per a pp eating out etc is very expensive, even at mid range places, so that has priced a lot of things out for them.
The job market is hard, due to the size of the country, especially in professional industries; many of her wider network have looked at Australia as an option.

Housing's great if you get a new build (or, you know, have one built for you as so many Kiwis do); it's the old stock that's cold.

Food tastes a lot better but is mad expensive.

DH and I thought about moving back when we visited last year but decided not to in the end. If we did it would be either the Wellington area or where my parents are in the South. I think there's plenty to do, but of course YMMV.

Inflation and cost of living are high. Food is more expensive than in the UK.

Quality and cost of housing are major issues. Poor quality housing with high cost of building works is a big problem.

Law and order is a big concern, with the rise in crime rates.

Health care and hospitals are also a problem.

Do some research on the social issues facing NZ and you'll see what the current situation is.

Not saying the UK is better just don't have unrealistic expectations of NZ.

I went through a ‘wow life is so easy here’ phase when I had a toddler and baby @saraclara and NZ was experiencing a boom. I was visiting during their summer while on mat leave and everything seemed shinier and easier. Angled parking spaces! Sushi everywhere! Clean beaches and living on one level with lots of light!

But then I started reading expat forums about how many people especially Brits - felt conned by the marketing and real life there was hard! I’m not actually a Brit either but it resonated.

Kiwi friends who went back in their 30s spent one freezing winter in their historic villa and then went for full on gas heating in time for the next winter! Almost unheard of there but they didn’t care and spent a fortune.

Thanks @DarkandStormyNightie . I think the ‘she’ll be right’ attitude is not always helpful (I’m looking at you hospital that I think underplayed my relative’s health shortly before his dearh).

It’s a very different job market and it does get very cold! If you are going to settle in Auckland, then I don’t think you have enough money to stop working at your ages if you are going to buy a flash house. I wouldn’t call Auckland dull but it wouldn’t be nice if you didn’t have money.