DH wants to move back to New Zealand

[Mightypen]

Trigger warning: we are OK off financially and I know this rationally so please do not read if moaning middle classes annoy you!

We both spent our formative years in NZ and DH was born there so has more of a pull… We moved over to the UK in our 20s.

DH thinks UK is in a dire economic and demographic position and the middle to well off will end up having to pay to bail us out from already taxed income. The rich have already left or have locked down their assets and protected themselves.

DH points out NZ has no stamp duty, virtually no capital gains tax, no inheritance tax. There is a reason millionaires are flocking there (we are not multi millionaires!). The NHS will be even more pressured as we reach old age and I wouldn’t be surprised if they stopped state pensions for anyone who owns a house worth over a certain amount or has, say, whatever the equivalent of £10k is in a savings account.

All dire predictions and catastrophising on my part has come true in recent years eg Brexit, Trump etc.

We (or our children) upon our demise will be handing over hundreds of thousands to the govt of already taxed income. Like many, the last few years have seen our standard of living drop. We are really lucky not to be anywhere near destitute or homeless. But there is no spare cash for any of the extras that made life fun. I can’t afford to pay more into my pension and I really should… there is no real scope to go beyond treading water.

The things that seemed realistic just a couple of years ago are out of reach now eg moving to our dream property.

I can see his point and agree we will be snookered here in old age. The main upside I can see of NZ is it beautiful, has great people and is further out of reach if we have nuclear war. BUT it’s dull and far away.

We have 2 DCs, a tween and early teen (years 6 and 8). They go to great schools which we are paying enormous sums for (sorry) and are getting the sort of opportunities we could only dream of in our youth. If we went back, we could send them to local schools where they at least have playing fields (we live in a city here). I don’t think private schools there offer the same value.

DH thinks we should cut our losses in the UK, sell up and resettle in NZ. He never used to feel like this and was always realistic about NZ’s strengths and weaknesses and the UK’s but he’s now very down on the UK.

The DC eulogise NZ as they have grown up with no close relatives here so think it must be amazing and they would live in sunshine forever more.

I remember it as boring, expensive with poor housing and a tad pretentious (in the circles I mixed in - prob as it was so small). Jobs and wealth were even more dependent on being connected whereas in the UK, if you have the skills, you can carve out a decent and interesting career.

Travel from NZ is expensive unless you want a trip
to Australia or the Pacific Islands. Asia is a short haul trip
and it’s at least 12 hours away…

I love European culture, food, history, architecture and nature. This continent has so much diversity and it’s just a short flight or even drive away. We would NEVER have access to this in NZ. I envisage my retirement as being filled with jaunts to the south of France in September, truffle gathering in Croatia in the autumn, long walks on Sardinian beaches in June, ambling through Seville during orange blossom season, island hopping in Greece in May, Christmas markets in Austria and Germany, summer trips to the Alps, short breaks to Budapest and Berlin…, revisiting the Hermitage in off season (if there is such a thing and if it is ever safe to go to Russia again).

Then there is the small matter of resettling DC. If we don’t go in the next year, it will be too late (and I doubt we can sell up by then). If we wait until DC have finished school, then we will
live on the other side of the world from them. Even if we move
them now, they will probably drift back to the UK for a few years at the very least in their 20s.

I’ve pointed all this out… what more can I say to convince DH this is a bad idea? Or am I wrong? Is there an alternative place I could propose to him? I don’t think anywhere is utopia. But is there anywhere better than here or NZ?

@youheard the business pages of all the main newspapers are speculating about the following: Taxing interest on isas over a certain holding : our isas are half of our pension savings. Taxing lump sum drawdowns from pensions at 55 that previously were tax free. Ending tax relief on contributions for higher rate tax payers. And so on, as Labour has pledged not to raise income tax, the black hole has to be plugged from somewhere.

We’ve already had to settle inheritance tax on grandparents, great aunts and soon to be in laws estates : it’s not “easy” to avoid if you’re not mega rich and into off shore trusts and just over the threshold because of London property prices

i’m aware of all this – but the talk off “taxing pensions” implied people thought pensions aren’t taxed already – which is a common misconception, The rest of it it is all speculation for now… I think they will end tax relief on the higher rates, I’d be very surprised if they started taxing Isaa, though of course none of us know. Even with increasing inheritances as a result of property prices theyre predicting the only 7% of people will pay IHT by 2932 - is not an issue that affects the vast majority of the country.

I think this is good advice. It's not so much about which country is better so much as how you make it work.

I don't see myself returning to the UK. If I did I would be giving up a very well-paying job. The discussions about crime, GPs, social life etc are less important than earning money.

@youheard IHT will significantly affect the OP’s estate which is why we’re discussing it on this thread. There is no IHT (or capital gains tax) in NZ.

I've been doing a mix of inwardly laughing and seething at some of the posts on this thread. Absolute nonsense a lot of it. I really think some Brits imagine NZ as a country consists of just a few square miles of land - "a tiny country". "The humidity is a killer" - news flash: the weather varies according to where you live, just like the UK. "Six weeks to get a GP visit" - what, in every single part of the country! I've never heard of anyone who had to wait that long. "Someone who drove for a whole day and never saw another person" - didn't happen (outback Australia maybe, NZ, no). I live in a small town and couldn't walk the two blocks from my flat to the library without seeing many other people. "You have to pay for healthcare" - we pay a subsidised fee to the GP and $5 for prescriptions, hospital treatment is free as are most tests. Oh, and in all of my 65 years I have NEVER seen mushrooms for sale for six pounds per punnet, utter rubbish.

We keep being told how 'superior' the British education system is. Many of the posts on this thread suggest otherwise.

I have close family in NZ. They have to wait minimum six weeks for a doctor. They are just on the edge of Auckland. I've suggested they go to another practice or have two practices to work with, but apparently they can't? (Or maybe don't want to). One is waiting for a private specialist. They made the appointment a few weeks ago and the soonest they could find is January. That may be common whatever country you are in though. More urgent care they can go to A and E.

I think it would be impossible to drive for a day and not see anyone in NZ.

I have no wish to live there but there are much worse places you could go. Like every country, it has it's issues. If you move, you make the best of it, you'll just be disappointed if you expect all issues to be resolved.

With better planning OP could probably avoid int. There is no guarantee it won’t be introduced in NZ

I've not waited six weeks for a GP appointment in the two decades I've lived here and I've never heard anyone I know having to wait that long.

That doesn't mean it hasn't been true for other people.

Of course. But I don't think this is normal.

I suspect you're right. I have no doubt they could get an appointment somewhere. Their particular practice is at least six weeks, though they can sometimes get in to see a nurse for basic things like ear checks. I'd ring around and find an appointment myself. They may be inflexible and only willing to go to the one practice.

No it doesn't, but it is strange that posters who actually live in NZ do not experience the same and we seem to reside in very different areas of NZ.

My family member has lived in NZ for probably longer than most people in this forum have been alive. And they definitely have a six week plus wait for their doctor. They are just outside Auckland.

Me personally, I'd phone around until I found an appointment and move practices if I needed to.

Me too. I know we are short of GPs, just like the UK but I am amazed that anyone would have to wait 6 vweeks for an appointment and that not to be headlines in the press. Who could wait or plan a GP appointment in six weeks? That is shocking and I would advise your relative contacts their MP.

I've told them to go to another practice. There must be better options. They did get in to see the practice nurse after two weeks while waiting for an appointment. They have to be more proactive about it, because I wouldn't accept that situation for my family.

Apparently they can't get telehealth appointments either. I don't know if NZ isn't doing them or if they just aren't being proactive in asking for one. When they got Covid they put off their appointment for another few weeks rather than ask for telehealth. Is NZ doing that as an option?

My mum gets downright snitty if she can't be seen within 2 days. She's in a small but popular settlement in the South Island. Going privately for a specialists appointment, she had to wait four days. Oh, the calamity.

@PuppiesLove At our practice we have to ring or use website to book an appointment for triage. This is normally within a few hours/same day. Triage is done by medical professional, has been a GP when we have used this. Triage then either books you an appointment with GP or Nurse or deals with you over phone and issues prescription/help etc.

When it was introduced, I was quite critical as I thought it was a way to make sure patients where not seen face as happened during covid. I was wrong though; my husband has used triage three times and each time it has been a really efficient service. I had to use the system to book an annual check up and was booked in with my GP at a time/day to suit me.

My Mum (in her nineties) was in the UK and she struggled getting appointments there as she did not use the internet, but I used to book them from NZ. I just wonder if technology has moved too quickly and we are leaving behind people not able or willing to use the internet.

Or perhaps the other reason could be that my Mum would not make a fuss to get an appointment, whereas I would not hesitate to make a fuss. Whichever it is, people should not ever have to wait six weeks to see a GP.

Sorry that was a bit of an essay!😁

They're not afraid of technology and I don't think would hesitate to push for an appointment. I did ask them what if it really can't wait and they said the option is A and E where they will wait at least 12 hours.

Maybe they really want us to not be encouraged to move there? haha. No, seriously, they would like us to but have advised us not to. I actually wouldn't as the medication my child is on isn't available there.

Whatever anyone experiences, and I accept the six weeks isn't the norm for most, six weeks isn't acceptable.

Yes, you would not want to go to A and E, especially on Friday or Saturday nights.

You are definitely right about the availability of medication, lots of drugs available in UK are not funded here. It is a very tough move - I miss the UK like mad, my husband not so much, but we are happy here and for the most part life is pretty damn good. On the plus side, we live in Hawke's Bay and I reckon we have around 70 wineries within easy travelling distance -- you win some -- you lose some,🍷

I don't think NZ is the answer. It's 50s man panic as someone said earlier. Also the timing is poor:

Your kids are too old now for the quality of childhood advantages. Soon they will want travel, lifestyle and universities you get in Europe.

The private schools fear is ridiculous. How are your kids doing academically as you haven't mentioned that? This seems paranoid or like an excuse for kids who may underachieve through slacking off.

The retirement you described that you wanted, with easy travel around Europe, won't work there. It's just too far. Who knows how the UK-Europe arrangements will work out in the next 20 years but Brexit will have to be acknowledged as a mistake sooner or later.

You're jumping too early. Your husband's plan to live off investments doesn't seem realistic. If you've got to move all that way and still downsize and live a dull life, what's the point?

As others have said, what about the options elsewhere in the UK? You could move to somewhere in the north in the wealthier areas just outside a city like Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle etc and have countryside, beaches, diversity and culture and much cheaper property. Couple of hours on the train to visit London when you wanted. Flights all over Europe.

A good saying is, "Wherever you go, there you are." You bring yourself with you. Something to think about if it's a personal unsettledness or other issue someone is trying to get away from.

Is he aware that he may end up paying international student fees for the kids if they go to school in NZ but want to return to the UK for uni? I think it's three years before university entry that they have to be living in the UK to qualify for home fees. UK universities are in a lot of financial hot water right now, and will be looking eagerly for additional sources of income; you might try to get round the rules and ask to be excused from paying international student fees, but I think it's going to get harder. UK universities are getting desperate.

If he doesn't like "woke" stuff (I may be projecting here), he will find plenty to dislike in NZ, especially the weird "indigenous ways of knowing" bollocks which seems to have permeated the curriculum in that country. I have a side of my family who have been back and forth among NZ, Oz and the UK. Generally speaking, the NZ education system is considered less academically rigorous than the UK, even the private schools. Very nice schools, nice outdoor stuff, nice sports. But less academic, just being honest. This is not bashing NZ at all. Just pointing out that it's a great country with its own strong and weak spots, just like the UK. If he's having a mid-life crisis and looking for reasons to think of himself as being swindled and put-upon, and insisting that rich priviledged men are the real victims in society, he will find reasons to think this in NZ, just like he can in the UK.

I find this talk of six weeks for a GP visit bananas. In all my life and various family doctors I have never not been able to get a GP appointment on the day I rang for it.

My GP came to my house once when I was really unwell. Granted, she lives near to me, but I have friends who are GPs who have done house calls too. Auckland’s medical system is pretty outstanding if you ask me.

I find it astonishing too re the 6 week wait. I used a medical centre with a great App called "Tend" in Auckland there is an appointment tomorrow lunchtime available and online on Tuesday morning. I think folks need to shop around and be a guest at a GP surgery, if they need seeing sooner. I would much rather pay $60 and be seen the same day.

NZ has lots of good things going for it, I agree its all about the attitude and mind set you take with you.

I think it's a shame that the discussion's been overtaken, to a large part, by the waiting times for medical attention. Obviously if the potential destination has little to no accessible healthcare provision that could be a hugely important factor in the decision to relocate or not, but in this instance I think it's more helpful to stick to the known essential considerations.

First up is would moving so far away from where the family are living now, be a good fit for everyone, not just the husband? Overall the OP's preferences for the coming years wouldn't seem to be too well served by NZ on a permanent basis.
The children, I'd be very cautious about whether it would ultimately serve them best for their further education and careers and the overseas fees could be a big issue to sort out, if there's any chance they'll think about university in England or Wales.

Next is the financials and how realistic the DH's ideas and plans are, given what we know now and also with a view to how things can suddenly change. What is the safety blanket and back up plan looking like? Doesn't sound well thought out at all to me.

When all those variables are worked out and only then, what are the gut feelings about the plan as a whole? and no one else can work that out for you. I get the impression that neither of you are enthused about your work or about NZ, particularly as DH isn't inclined towards an outdoors lifestyle. He sounds like it's a late midlife crisis and resentment about contributing to society. I can tell him that a huge percentage of middle income families are feeling a pinch compared to what we were used to, but should we all up sticks and run away? Not if it's frying pan into the fire so far as lifestyle satisfaction is concerned.

I don't know how easy it would be for both of you to work elsewhere geographically, but in your shoes, in the first instance, I'd be renting out the house and moving to a less expensive location somewhere in the UK and then reassess to try and fit on the same page.