DH wants to move back to New Zealand

[Mightypen]

Trigger warning: we are OK off financially and I know this rationally so please do not read if moaning middle classes annoy you!

We both spent our formative years in NZ and DH was born there so has more of a pull… We moved over to the UK in our 20s.

DH thinks UK is in a dire economic and demographic position and the middle to well off will end up having to pay to bail us out from already taxed income. The rich have already left or have locked down their assets and protected themselves.

DH points out NZ has no stamp duty, virtually no capital gains tax, no inheritance tax. There is a reason millionaires are flocking there (we are not multi millionaires!). The NHS will be even more pressured as we reach old age and I wouldn’t be surprised if they stopped state pensions for anyone who owns a house worth over a certain amount or has, say, whatever the equivalent of £10k is in a savings account.

All dire predictions and catastrophising on my part has come true in recent years eg Brexit, Trump etc.

We (or our children) upon our demise will be handing over hundreds of thousands to the govt of already taxed income. Like many, the last few years have seen our standard of living drop. We are really lucky not to be anywhere near destitute or homeless. But there is no spare cash for any of the extras that made life fun. I can’t afford to pay more into my pension and I really should… there is no real scope to go beyond treading water.

The things that seemed realistic just a couple of years ago are out of reach now eg moving to our dream property.

I can see his point and agree we will be snookered here in old age. The main upside I can see of NZ is it beautiful, has great people and is further out of reach if we have nuclear war. BUT it’s dull and far away.

We have 2 DCs, a tween and early teen (years 6 and 8). They go to great schools which we are paying enormous sums for (sorry) and are getting the sort of opportunities we could only dream of in our youth. If we went back, we could send them to local schools where they at least have playing fields (we live in a city here). I don’t think private schools there offer the same value.

DH thinks we should cut our losses in the UK, sell up and resettle in NZ. He never used to feel like this and was always realistic about NZ’s strengths and weaknesses and the UK’s but he’s now very down on the UK.

The DC eulogise NZ as they have grown up with no close relatives here so think it must be amazing and they would live in sunshine forever more.

I remember it as boring, expensive with poor housing and a tad pretentious (in the circles I mixed in - prob as it was so small). Jobs and wealth were even more dependent on being connected whereas in the UK, if you have the skills, you can carve out a decent and interesting career.

Travel from NZ is expensive unless you want a trip
to Australia or the Pacific Islands. Asia is a short haul trip
and it’s at least 12 hours away…

I love European culture, food, history, architecture and nature. This continent has so much diversity and it’s just a short flight or even drive away. We would NEVER have access to this in NZ. I envisage my retirement as being filled with jaunts to the south of France in September, truffle gathering in Croatia in the autumn, long walks on Sardinian beaches in June, ambling through Seville during orange blossom season, island hopping in Greece in May, Christmas markets in Austria and Germany, summer trips to the Alps, short breaks to Budapest and Berlin…, revisiting the Hermitage in off season (if there is such a thing and if it is ever safe to go to Russia again).

Then there is the small matter of resettling DC. If we don’t go in the next year, it will be too late (and I doubt we can sell up by then). If we wait until DC have finished school, then we will
live on the other side of the world from them. Even if we move
them now, they will probably drift back to the UK for a few years at the very least in their 20s.

I’ve pointed all this out… what more can I say to convince DH this is a bad idea? Or am I wrong? Is there an alternative place I could propose to him? I don’t think anywhere is utopia. But is there anywhere better than here or NZ?

MZ has a booming technology industry. I fact the more remote work becomes the norm, the more desirable places like NX are becoming.

Also science research and agritech is big.

Tourism, renewable energy and private healthcare is all doing well.

Obviously all the key worker roles exist and are generally better paid.

What part of this makes you think there is no future for the young in NZ?

My husband grew up in New Zealand for a bit - is dad is from there and they went there for four years and returned because the job pool was so limited. We also have friends who love there and while they seem happy enough they were pretty clear eyed about the downsides, which are all pretty similar to what you have listed.

I do sympathise with your husband, life here is getting harder and the middle class is shrinking. But I think this is happening everywhere - just go on and read a message board from another country, the complaints are spookily similar - and it sounds like he's romanticising and could be in for disappointment and dealing with that while being very geographically isolated. I don't think there is a neat solution to the fact we are living through history with a capital H.

OP @angstypant has got the finances just spot on. If you move to akld the house will eat up a huge amount of capital and you’ll have an ok but not extravagant early retirement.

I am a kiwi living in UK. Half your net worth but a bit younger. I think we might become non tax resident in uk and tax resident in Nz later to swerve inheritance tax.

I think the posters who think that the state pension won’t be means tested in the distant future are very naive. HMRC doesn’t have a “pot” with your NI contributions earmarked. How it works is that workers pay for the current pensioners. We have an aging population. There won’t be enough tax payers to pay for future pensioners in 20 years.

But I digress. Are your kids super sporty? Judging from my nieces and nephews and friends’ kids that seems to be the route to happiness and popularity at any school in Nz private or state. Even the private schools are very light on academics, unless you send them to one which puts the kids in for iGCSEs in desperation to instil some kind of rigour. If you have sporty not so academic kids who are prone to anxiety over academic achievement- NZ is the place for them!!!

my academic musical and non sporty kids would be eaten alive in school in Nz so we’re looking at it as a back up for university (where you just fill out the application form, basically).

“Last year 1.2 million people came to live in the UK and 532,000 left.“

@MumblesParty - the crude figures tell us nothing. What we need to know is age, level of skill, earning potential to draw any meaningful conclusions out of those figures. If all those who left are highly skilled young tax payers, that is obviously not good news.

Yes but avocados in season are literally given away.
I don't understand how people base things on a specific food item. Olive oil is cheaper in Greece than Finland.

We are grappling with a similar decision - not NZ but we do have the option to move to several other countries. I agree with your DH that the state of the UK economy is absolutely dire and will only get worse without significant reform to the benefits system and the NHS but we all know that will never happen, taxes will just continue to increase until things reach breaking point. I resent daily having to pay basically half my income to an incompetent government and getting no decent services in return - I've lived in six different countries (including two which would probably considered developing countries) and the NHS is by far the worst healthcare I've ever experienced. State schools in London are terrible unless you get extremely lucky with catchment area so like you we will be forced to go private for the same quality of education that would be provided by state schools in other countries. There are huge benefits to living in the UK, not least the culture and easy access to Europe as you point out, but we are constantly having the debate as to when the pros outweigh the cons - still haven't quite made our minds up yet!

If you are in professional roles with children in private school then I assume university is on radar. How will that work? Will they want to study in uk, how will you fund it if you are international fees.
I know a couple of families who moved with teens (USA and Australia) and they didn’t settle and came back home as soon as possible, one at 16 to live with grandparents leaving parents on other side of world.

I suppose it's the fact that the enormous buying power and clout of UK supermarkets has given us cheap fruit and veg and produce of all types, all year round. It's jarring to go to another country and find that's not actually the norm. Historically (let's say 40+ years ago) it certainly wasn't the case in the UK either, of course.

It sounds like your husband has been reading Daily Mail type stories about the state of the UK.

I refuse to believe 3-4m won’t buy you a house in Auckland. But then you say net worth 4m which is quite different! There is no way I would retire early unless I had minimum $3m invested/pensions. 5% return on 3m (nzd) is 150k, you will presumably have to pay tax on that, so it’s not rolling in it (nzd is not worth as much as the pound) but perfectly liveable. Also, does nzd have no asset test at all for the pension? I’m in Australia and all my calcs are based on not getting any pension because of the asset test.

You really need to scrutinise your fact gathering techniques

There was a MONTH of negative migration in May. The first time (outside of Covid weirdness) since 2013.

But overall the year is still well in positive net migration

The increase is smaller yes. But it is an increase just the same. An estimated net increase of close to 70k people to July 2024

I believe NZ has its own set of issues too, the issue is most countries right now are having some sort of crisis going on. I believe NZ is extremely expensive and has a housing crisis of its own too. There is no perfect utopia anywhere right now. It looks like it's going to be tough times ahead for the UK but it's the same for most of Europe. I'd say the only places where money is abundant is the gulf countries but they've also got their own sets of issues too.
Could you potentially hold of until your kids reach uni age so they can do their schooling here and than decide if they want to join you or not?
Everywhere has its pros and cons so you have to really list and research what the best option for you will be

@Mightypen My friend exported a Whippet to NZ recently {years in planning}
I look at his videos now he has arrived, and feel it is paradise for Whippets- he has green acres and mountains to roam in on their land, and from a dog's point of view, it looks magnificent.

I'm REALLY impressed with NZ biosecurity.
Here we take in dogs and other animals willy nilly without quarantine and sometimes faked paperwork.

My son and his GF went there as part of a working year out, and found the isolation almost eerie- they drove for a whole day without seeing another person.

They found it incredibly expensive.

A workmate went there for months and felt very geographically isolated.

Another went there to emigrate, and a few years later, in an English village, I heard her voice - and said ''Are you over for a holiday?''...she replied, no, we came back. {Luckily they'd rented out their UK house so it was available to come back to.

I absolutely understand how this country {UK} is tax grabbing - inheritance tax is set at such a low level.

Europe being near is an asset, but I know someone who settled in NZ and lives on an expensive island there, and has now actually got a hybrid accent!

She won't be coming back to UK.
Her mother bought a house there, but missed England too much, so came back.

{They too aren't short of money}

It seems such an individual thing.

Pic of flight radar for the dog- we followed him from London Heathrow to Christchurch.

For anyone shipping their dogs- go via Hamad International Airport, Doha.
They have a very good brand new Animal reception centre for Bloodstock, Dogs, Cats and other animals, clean and pristine and air conditioned.

Singapore is dreadful- animals have died there from heat and lack of water just being left on the airport concrete in their crates.

Yet Auckland has a lower crime rate over London for all crimes other than cars and things being stolen from cars and houses.

So if high crime is a factor then you should be terrified of living in London

"Yes but avocados in season are literally given away"

You can grow an avocado tree in your garden in the North Island. My Dad has a fantastic avocado tree in his semi rural private garden. Every year, just as it hits peak crop, some fuckers come along and raid the whole tree stealing every avocado.

In the same town my Mum's car was stolen and used in a ram raid on a bottle store. This kind of crime is prolific in NZ & those found guilty are given a hand slap.

I wouldnt be rushing there for the education - NZ is so woke the universities are actively degrading themselves as centers of higher learning.

"Science classes are to be taught that Māori ‘Ways of Knowing’ (Mātauranga Māori) have equal standing with ‘western’ science."
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-im-sticking-up-for-science/

I'd go to New Zealand and buy some sort of glamping holiday park, then manage and run it!!! I'd want to go all out with massive lifestyle change! I don't think you can base your decision on a Mumsnet forum. It needs masses of research, lots of pros and cons lists, then just go with your heart.

What attitudes?
Far quicker to adopt new technologies as it's easier to migrate infrastructure as it's all smaller and relatively modern compared to UK

Trans inclusive in comparison

Civil union between same sex granted in 2004 vs UK 2013.

One of the first countries to give women the vote.

I'm really wondering where this 1950s thing came from.

If you're going to be 'handing over hundreds of thousands to the govt of already taxed income' then you must have pretty decent resources. I don't see how you can’t afford to pay more into your pension or why there's no 'scope to go beyond treading water.'

But that aside, I think your retirement vision sounds much nicer than a retirement in NZ.

I am not surprised at your DHs wish at all. Even if not viewing NZ with rose tinted spectacles, and going back can often be a bad idea.

A country that had Jacinda Ardern as Prime Minister when we had Boris Johnson and Liz Truss.

I think more research into things such as the NZ job opportunities and economy should be done.

The Times wants money to read this article.

Here is a free one about gangs in NZ.

Seems Australia deported it's NZ gang members back to NZ hence a spike in violent crime.

sayzoons.ca/general/483145/

@Twinklefloss

I am a kiwi living in UK. Half your net worth but a bit younger. I think we might become non tax resident in uk and tax resident in Nz later to swerve inheritance tax.

It's not as easy as it sounds.

The residence of an individual will drive New Zealand’s ability to tax their income. Tax resident persons of New Zealand are taxed in New Zealand on their world-wide income. It is therefore an important concept.
An individual is a tax resident of New Zealand if, either:
They are in New Zealand for more than 183 days in any 12-month period; and/or
They have a permanent place of abode in New Zealand (“PPOA”).
So if you don't spend a minimum of 183 days in any 11 months you need a permanent address. It can be owned or rented.

@Twinklefloss
And it has to be available to you when you visit. It has to be deemed your regular abode. So not rented out

Hi! Yes, I got that too. But couldn't see it was worth a trigger warning. I probably overthought.

At the risk of sounding cliche OP - the only constant is change.
The UK was thriving a couple of decades ago. Look at the situation now.
Every country is the same, there are periods of prosperity and poverty.
You don't know what NZ will be like when you retire 10,20, even 30 years from now.

In light of that, I wouldn't move to a tiny, isolated country with no escape. Especially as the labour shortage with the ageing population crisis is likely to be more severe there.

Do you mean Jacinda Adern as a positive?