Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

There must be a name for the odd psychological script that gets played out on here.

Also 'cruel'

I'm not ashamed at all, however much people whose views I think are completely illogical tell me I should be.

I'm proud of myself for speaking up here and elsewhere, and I'm proud of the strong, forthright women of Mumsnet for saying no, and of many of the women of this country for not falling for emotional blackmail and not putting their own needs and feelings last. We matter.

It's not something "just in our heads" though, is it?

We are talking about the realities of removing other women's rights to single sex spaces. For example, which is what you are doing if you are "fine" with your TW friend in women's toilets with you. It's not just about you, that's the point. It has implications for other people who aren't okay with it. So I'll ask you the same question.

Why did we have to have single sex spaces in certain circumstances?

'Transwomen' commit crimes at the same rate as other males. *

99% of sex crimes are committed by men.

Males, as a sex class, present a statistical risk to women. It makes no difference how they identify.

*Possibly in fact at a higher rate, but for simplicity, let's just say the same rate as other men.

^fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/^

I'm proud of JK Rowling, Kellie Jay, Julie Bindel and Maya Forstater. I'm proud of the new women's movement we've built.

You don't really need to be proud of posting anonymously in an internet echo chamber tbf.

Well, there seems to be something called "projection" that you're engaging in currently, yes.

I think @Ghilliegums you are assuming that women wanting safe spaces are hysterically shouting that your friend and all transwomen are awful, evil paedos and rapists who have no right to exist. That's not it at all.

Women's safe spaces were not designed because men have no right to exist, or are all paedos and rapists.They were designed because we can't tell which men might assault us at the worst- a minority- or make us feel uncomfortable at best ( probably the majority). It's not a moral judgement on men, or transwomen. It's just a space for women. That's it.

All men are not rapists or paedos or fetishists. But a few are. And women shouldn't have to figure out which. Let men do that by allowing transwomen into their loos, as they are at no risk.

There are plenty of people on this thread disagreeing with each other. It's bloody noisy, for an echo chamber.

I have used it once, not lots, and I was making no reference to the concept of acceptance.

The word bigot has been used several times by posters saying they have been accused of being one, but there isn't a single comment on this thread calling anyone here one.

If you must insist on making things up, please be aware that this thread is in writing and we can refer to back to see what is factually accurate.

This is another example of poor debating.

Yes.

It's called logic and reason. Stemming from understanding legal principles and how they work in practice. Not just in your imagination.

Snigger.

I think you are assuming that women wanting safe spaces are hysterically shouting that your friend and all transwomen are awful, evil paedos and rapists who have no right to exist. That's not it at all

Really? That's exactly what it's been like on this thread!

Oh dear.

Yes, and lets not forget privacy and dignity. Most women just don't want to share spaces where they are vulnerable with men.

You don't really need to be proud of posting anonymously in an internet echo chamber tbf.

That's not all I've done.

If you have or ever had a penis you are a man and should stay the fuck out of womens spaces! That is all I have left to say. Thanks everyone it's been a wild ride!

I know right.

Funny how we can have an argument with ourselves in an echo chamber.

Psychological nutjobs the lot of us.

Not one person has said all trans women are agps or fetishists.

You are now lying.

Yes, men need to stay out of women's spaces. However they feel.

The comment to me was deflecting, since instead of responding to it, an attempt was made to draw me into discussing an entirely different matter.

These tactics will not work on me, I'm afraid.

Yes, and let's not forget privacy and dignity. Most women just don't want to share spaces where they are vulnerable with men.

Yes. It gets skimmed over and ignored all the time. It's not just about safety.

Women are entitled to state our boundaries, state reality, and our belief that sex is immutable and important.

And done.

Trust your instincts OP.