Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

My posts really weren't all that bad, although I respect any decision made by MN HQ.

I haven't reported anyone's posts myself, but I'm pretty sure I could have had some personal attacks towards me deleted if I was so inclined.

Of course, you feel it's justified on your behalf to use those tactics. Thus demonstrating my point for me.

Asking for our rights to be upheld and saying that we don't agree to men in womens spaces is squabbling is it?
Honestly being called bullies and men telling us we should accept other men in our spaces and like it is like living on an alien planet!

Sums it up in a nutshell.

I am invested in my trans and GNC friends continuing to use the loos to which they are legally entitled without being harassed by gender critical people.

I've said this before to you and I will say it again @DadJoke - As our current Prime Minister, who is pretty au fait with Law, has said clearly and unequivocally: Transwomen, even those with a GRC, do not have a legal right to enter female single sex spaces including toilets.

Time for you to stop peddling the untruth that they do.

Of course, you feel it's justified on your behalf to use those tactics

What "tactics" are those? Arabella is one of the most genuine, kindhearted people on Mumsnet. She was making an observation that it clearly isn't all one way towards you, is it?

This.

Women should be allowed to say no if they have an issue with something.

Because consent.

But the whole dynamic here, is precisely that women can't say no. And other women seem to have this rather misguided idea that they can say yes on behalf of all women without any sort of consensus about how representative they are.

Which is equally fucked up.

Has anyone come up with a good reason yet for the proposition that women should turn a blind eye to the fact that many men who claim to be trans women are using women’s spaces to act out their fetish? And why we should be more concerned about these men’s feelings than our own safety and dignity?

The only reason I’ve seen is that we should put the feelings of these men first? Even now there’s a ton of evidence re the motivations of many of these men and the harms to women?

We’re 35 pages in and a handful of posters want us to put men first but not one has given a good reason why that is?

Aw, Eresh! 😘

I haven't reported any posts, fwiw.

We’re 35 pages in and a handful of posters want us to put men first but not one has given a good reason why that is?

It's a pattern in these discussions.

I've not seen any reason other than 'because they want to' and 'because you should be kind'.

And a bunch of insults. And accusations that saying no is bullying and shameful.

We’re 35 pages in and a handful of posters want us to put men first but not one has given a good reason why that is?

DadJoke's mates want to use the toilets of their choosing, and PaillettenBedeckt says we're rude and yucky for minding.

That's TWO good reasons you demanding greedy ingrate!

Do you have a source for that? I don’t think that is what he said.

Glad I haven't missed anything Red because that's all I saw too.

https://www.attitude.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-women-only-spaces-469056/

'Writing on 29 June on X, formerly Twitter, Harry Potter author Rowling asked: “Do biological males with gender recognition certificates have the right to enter women-only spaces? It’s a simple yes/no question.”

Responding, Sir Keir said: “No. They don’t have that right. They shouldn’t. That’s why I’ve always said biological women’s spaces need to be protected.”'

I'm yet to see a situation where gender neutral toilets have replaced sex based ones where there has been a proper consultation of the users of all toilets and due consideration to disabilities and religious minorities has been duly explained.

Women, those with disabilities and religious minorities are not even being considered.

Others are making decisions on our behalf without the decency to ask about the impact.

If someone is trying to convince me to think differently you’d really think they’d try to give a compelling reason for it.

As it is I can see no reason to change my opinion that the safety & dignity of women and girls is more important, when it comes to single sex spaces, than the hurt feelings of the males who want to make us unsafe by their presence.

Convince me that I’m wrong rather than trying to shame me to lower my boundaries.

I've attempted to stay away from making personal attacks. I don't respect people who resort to them in an argument. I was calling out poor behaviour last night. If MN HQ feels that I have not got the balance there right, I respect that. Naturally, I make mistakes sometimes as I'm only human.

However, it's not my intention to come here to upset or distress anyone. One of the primary reasons I come on MN is to try and provide assistance, support, and a friendly ear to other women. Maybe the odd telling off when I see poor behaviour. I don't always get that exactly right, but that's my goal.

Which is really my purpose here. I don't especially want to get into a debate about this issue. I want to call attention to the fact that I and other women are being insulted and hounded when they come on these threads with opinions that don't wholly align with your doctrines.

I know it's not getting me anywhere because no one here wants to examine their own behaviour. And they certainly don't want to concede that yes, most trans people are simply trying to go about their day and have no malicious intent whatsoever. But I don't mind trying on this one occasion to shine a light on this dark corner of MN, even if it does get me roundly insulted.

Do you have a source for that? I don’t think that is what he said.

Plenty of links on Google - you can choose from The Times, The Telegraph, The Sun, The Daily Mail AND PINK NEWS!

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Convince me that I’m wrong rather than trying to shame me to lower my boundaries.

This. A million times over.

I most certainly did not say that. I must have repeated a dozen times what I was referring to, if you'd like to scroll up.

most trans people are simply trying to go about their day and have no malicious intent whatsoever

But you don't seem to be able to answer why they can't go about their day using their own sex specific spaces. If they don't feel comfortable there, why are you not focusing on the need for other men to be more accommodating and welcoming?

It's not getting you anywhere because you want women to be quiet and not question men in womens spaces.
I don't want men however they identify in my space, why isn't that enough?