Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Because I don't agree that they are men, nor men with fetishes. And I am entitled to think that without being accused of nastiness towards rape and sexual assault victims, personal attacks, being hounded, or any other unpleasant tactic.

I'm sorry to hear of your experiences. I understand why this would make you particularly cautious and anxious to avoid what you perceive as a threat. I have had my own bad experiences too and it shouldn't happen. We should be able to go about our lives without being assaulted.

Maybe not piling on to posters who say they have no issue with the vast majority of trans people?

As it is, I do have concerns about women's sport and want it kept sex segregated.

You are just so intransigent! Pardon the pun.

What do you mean you don't agree that they are men? It's a physical fact they are male how can you not agree with reality?

Maybe not piling on to posters who say they have no issue with the vast majority of trans people?

It's not about "trans" it's about being male. This is the OP's thread on the Chat board, no one is "piling on", we're all just giving our own views.

Oh you do have concerns about womens safety in sport do you. Well what about womens safety everywhere else? Why are you only concerned about sport?

I think this article demonstrates why language is important.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13636323/British-woman-35-tries-rape-20-year-old-female-compatriot-tourist-bar-toilets-Greek-island-Rhodes.html

I don't have an answer to this question. I wish I did.

It's impossible to tell if any man (and I mean man) is going to hurt you, unfortunately.

If you class all trans women as men, I do indeed understand your anxiety. It's not one I share, but as I've said I'm not the one dictating who goes in which toilet. I can only tell you that I don't have a fear of trans women. If you find that offensive or you want to extrapolate that I'm telling you to shut up and get on with boot licking, there isn't much I can do about that except clarify and hope you listen.

I don't feel bad for holding the views that I do, or for thinking that womens rights matter.

Seconded.

Yes, it is a fact that they were born physically male. But for whatever reason which is none of my business, my friend feels happier and freer presenting as a woman and because they are nice and genuinely not trying to bulldoze their way into women's spaces then I'm totally happy to refer to her as she, and her partner as she, and her friends as he and she.

I agree that they're biologically male, yes.

I don't agree that a man and a trans woman are interchangeable concepts and should be treated as such. Again, I'm entitled to that view.

And I don't mind transwomen in the loos either.

Firstly, almost all of them retain their penis and testicles. 92% (per medical data. Though I have also seen 97% mentioned as well). So basically almost none actually have the op. Almost none!

Secondly, for those tiny minute minority that do, HOW do you suppose we know?

That, is why the only answer is to keep ALL males out.

Well that's honest. I'm glad you understand my concerns.

I'm still deeply confused by you disagreeing that transwomen are men. You are disagreeing with basic reality. How does that work?

Well I, as a female, and as a RAPE SURVIVOR, do mind.

And you don't have my consent to give my rights to safe single sex spaces away.

But for whatever reason which is none of my business, my friend feels happier and freer presenting as a woman and because they are nice and genuinely not trying to bulldoze their way into women's spaces then I'm totally happy to refer to her as she, and her partner as she, and her friends as he and she.

So your male friend doesn't use women's spaces?

That's all well and good as long they stay out of womens spaces. You can call them her/she you can support them and be a good friend. That doesn't mean they have the right to use womens soaces though.

In what way aren't they men? What magically makes them not men?

Why did we have to have single sex spaces in the first place?

With regard to those reasons, and given the statistics that men who identify as women are not only "just" as likely to be sex offenders as other males, they are more likely to be, why should they be let into women's single sex spaces?

So do you think that men who say they are trans are women, so materially the same as you?

Do you deny the existence of AGP? And the men who say they are trans who talk about their euphoria boners and the like, if they are women like me why don’t I experience such things?

What about the fact that a woman was raped by a trans woman in an NHS ward , and the girls who were sex assaulted by a trans woman in Morrisons? Does the fact that women & children are being harmed not bother you AT ALL?

I have every right to want to feel & be safe in single sex spaces. Decent men respect that. That a woman should say that my needs don’t matter is disgusting. Honestly disgusting.

No one is giving away your rights. They're stating their opinion. You don't have to get all capital letters about it.

You can't override instincts OP. People think we can, but they're powerful when they switch on.

I rest my case.

Absolutely fucking pointless conversation.

It's not a concept though, it's a biological fact!

As I said before, this is trying to define sex via something other than sex. There is no logic to this view.

And no one should be making women and girls feel that they need to ignore their instincts when it comes to their safety and dignity.

I appreciate you taking the time to write this, but I don't intend to debate those questions with you. I feel it will become a bad faith argument and I'd rather not get into it.

I hope you can appreciate my position on this matter.