Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

A man is a man, whether he surgically removes his penis or not.

However, the key point in this argument is:

'If someone who was born a man no longer has a penis, wants to live as a woman and is an ordinary decent individual not a perv,'

How do we tell?

I don't see a problem with that. I don't see a problem with you saying you are uncomfortable with someone who is trans carrying out the procedure either. You're entitled to choose who you want to carry out an intimate examination.

If that's what you think I'm saying you shouldn't be allowed to do, then please allow me to disabuse you of that conclusion.

And never have I dictated to anyone I have simply given my opinion.
I do NOT want any man in my space that is how I feel, but you are the one saying that is mean, bullying etc etc.

No, I didn't think anyone was advocating harassing anyone in the street.

Then what scenario are you imagining? Here is one I posted where I might need to say something a male identified as a woman might find objectionable:

If I go for a smear test and I ask for a woman to do it or chaperone a male doctor and I need to say, "no, I'm sorry, I meant someone female", I will absolutely do that.

Is mine acceptable?

@PaillettenBedeckt cross posted with you

How do we tell?

This is a good point.

I do find it hard to tell which men (by which I mean men) have nefarious intentions towards me in general. It's not an easy thing to navigate.

I don't see a problem with you saying you are uncomfortable with someone who is trans carrying out the procedure either.

I'm not though. It's because they are male, not because of their identity.

You haven’t committed to whether you think that rape victims should be compelled to call their rapist she if the rapist says he is a woman.

You haven’t engaged in the points raised about the fact that many trans women are men acting out their fetishes in women’s single sex spaces.

Your entire argument appears to be based on the feelings of males being more important than the safety and dignity of women & girls & that we should respect our oppressor class if they use the magic words ‘I am trans’ .

I find it very hard to be respectful of women who hold these opinions, I can’t help that, I’ve just been around the block enough to find your views offensive.

I appreciate that's how you feel about trans women. You should be able to turn anyone down for an intimate examination for any reason you choose so I feel you're being entirely reasonable, even though I don't agree with the philosophy of treating trans women as if they were men.

But they are men! That is reality!

But they ARE men! They are not women. Males with a cock and balls are not women.

It's really that simple.

I appreciate that's how you feel about trans women.

The group of males you refer to as women. Not me.

even though I don't agree with the philosophy of treating trans women as if they were men.

That's fine. I don't agree with the philosophy of treating males as if they were female.

most trans people are simply trying to go about their day and have no malicious intent whatsoever

And how does one tell the difference between those who have no malicious intent and those who do?

I find it very hard to be respectful of women who hold these opinions

I haven't stated those opinions. Either I've not engaged or I've been telling you all what to think and feel. It can't be both.

I've deliberately steered away as much as possible from getting into a debate with someone which I feel will become needlessly heated. That has allowed a lot of posters to write stuff like ah ha that must mean you think X or Y unpleasant opinion and put a lot of putative words in my mouth, but I can't help that. It's not up to me how others choose to perceive me.

However, I really don't appreciate being suspected or accused of unpleasant intentions towards rape or sexual assault victims. It isn't as if I haven't had my own bad experiences in that regard. I know it's easier to argue with things I haven't said, but these are particularly low blows.

Omg!

"I have a trans friend and I like her and she's a nice person and I call her her"

But what about PEDOPHILES
And ABUSERS
DO YOU LIKE WATCHING WOMEN COWER IN FEAR WHILE MEN DELIBERATELY STRIP NAKED IN FRONT OF THEM IN THE CHANGING ROOMS?
I CANT HAVE A TRANS FRIEND BECAUSE I AM TOO HONEST TO USE THEIR PRONOUNS

Honestly. Pick your battles.

If you care, that is what you en masse sound like.

Lots of advice being given to us by people who claim not to care what we think.

How do we tell which are which before it’s too late?

I'm not interested in whether male people in women's spaces are "trans", nice people, want to be around women etc. I don't want any male people in women's spaces at all.

Where do you think they should be placed wrt prisons?

In the male or female estate?

No I don't care.
I don't feel bad for holding the views that I do, or for thinking that womens rights matter.
Which battles should I be picking then?

There's never an answer to this question

100% this.

I find it deeply upsetting that some women don’t get this.

Again, my DP is a nice man. He's a decent man, so he doesn't barge into women's spaces, but he wouldn't do any harm if he did.

A) that's not the point, women are entitled to privacy and dignity away from men when they need to be

B) other women don't know he's a nice man rather than a nasty one