Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Yes, you are giving away her rights. And all of ours. As are other silly transactivist women, You are giving away the right of other women to say no to men in our spaces.

As has been said earlier - you do NOT have the right to consent on behalf of other women to give away our rights even if you have decided you personally don't need them. It is extremely controlling.

I know, it is. It's frustrating.

I don't think I've ever been in a 'women's space' with her so I have no idea. She uses the women's loo in the pub, which is a room with a door and a loo inside. Fine by me.

What makes you think you get to consent for other women?

Why because we can’t discuss the truth about the motives of some of these men?

Why not?

Erm.

Tbf how do we square vouyerism laws with males in female spaces if they can just say 'well I'm trans so I can't possibly be leering at women' though.

This isn't an unfair point to make. It's a legitimate concern about the law and it being undermined.

This doesn't mean anyone is saying transwomen are paedos and rapists. It means they can see a massive great woofing loophole being created which is problematic.

These laws were created because there is an issue with paedos and rapists and vouyerers. This problem with paedos and rapists and vouyerers hasn't ceased to exist. And paedos and rapists have a habit of trying to exploit situations to their advantage.

So how do we ensure that loopholes aren't used whilst also allowing all transwomen into female spaces? Especially when we know the rates of sex offending are higher with cross dressing and trans identifying prisoners than the male population.

There's no vetting process here. Women are being told to accept without exception and if they question they are bigotted. Women are being told they can't challenge or question if they feel uncomfortable because that's like racism.

If you can't see the problem here it's because you don't want to and you want to enable sexual abuse of women and girls. There is no other reasonable explanation to the wilful blindness.

This isn't being nice and respectful to women.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the toilet police.

That is batshit.

No-one so far on this thread is giving away your rights.

I'm a boring middle aged provincial woman who has no say in the tabling of rights in the UK.

No I really don’t appreciate your opinion on this matter your disregard to the safety and dignity of women disgusts me.

Someone has come on here to discuss this with you and in five minutes, you've rounded on her to the point she's recognised this is utterly pointless.

Can you not see aren't you aren't helping yourselves?

Not fine by me and others on this thread though is it? It's a man in a womens space and you are defending that!

And flounce without an argument shouting bigot to guilt and shame.

Yep we get it.

Nobody's "the toilet police".

If you are someone who is busy welcoming men (trans women) into women's toilets, then you are giving away other women's right to that space being single sex. Without their consent.

In any case, you do know this isn't just about toilets, don't you?

Why did we fight to have single sex spaces and services in certain circumstances?

Explain to me how the laws on vouyerism are not being weakened to the point of uselessness then.

But what about PEDOPHILES
And ABUSERS
DO YOU LIKE WATCHING WOMEN COWER IN FEAR WHILE MEN DELIBERATELY STRIP NAKED IN FRONT OF THEM IN THE CHANGING ROOMS?

It's really noticeable that in places and for people where safeguarding is taken for granted it quickly becomes something that is dismissed.

If you can't see the problem here it's because you don't want to and you want to enable sexual abuse of women and girls. There is no other reasonable explanation to the wilful blindness

Wow. If you really genuinely believe that you need help. Seriously.

If someone having a different opinion to you causes so much panic that you feel it's justified to call them an enabler of sexual abuse then you need therapy.

The only person who used the word bigot is you.

As it is, I do have concerns about women's sport and want it kept sex segregated.

Why just sport?

You are not helping yourself much, tbh. Since you can't answer basic questions.

I'm sorry that a couple of you seem to be finding other women talking about reality and their own rights incredibly difficult to cope with. Unfortunately for you, the days of "no debate" are long behind us. Other women are discussing their rights to single sex spaces. Perhaps you could be more understanding of why?

You don't have to use the word. You've made the point enough about how we aren't accepting enough. And we should be ashamed. You have said the word ashamed lots.

No, I'm not going to discuss something completely different with you.

I'm asking you to examine the usefulness of making anyone who doesn't agree with you your enemy who must be rounded on and eliminated.

Eventually, you have eliminated everyone except yourselves and your echo chamber is complete.

The reasons I have stated above will answer any questions you have about why I won't get into a debate with you on these matters.

Funny how words and their meanings suddenly matter at this point though...

Yeah, so it's OK to go for someone who hasn't actually said what you've made up in your head, but calling other women sexual abuse enablers is fine. OK then.

Why are you deflecting?

It's just that it's a tactic oft seen by transactivists who can't answer basic questions. Like "why do you think transwomen aren't men" and "why do we have single sex spaces?"

So you are going to avoid talking about inconvenient issues because they are 'completely different subjects'.

Except of course they aren't. That's the problem.

You just want to talk about the things you want and not the difficult stuff.

Fortunately life doesn't work like that and the government are waking up to the issue that you can't shove difficult with questions under the rug with the Irish border cos they come out and bite you on the arse.