Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

not my intention to come here to upset or distress anyone

You were awful to me in the middle of the night. Describing the need for safe spaces for women, brushed off with put downs. I don't report to allow people to see these things.

I know it's not getting me anywhere because no one here wants to examine their own behaviour.

Just like you then, you clearly see yours as justified.

I have also said specifically that I am not trying to silence anyone. Women being strong and forthright is a good thing. When it gets to the point you're attacking other women for questioning you, though that's when you need to examine it.

I also didn't say you shouldn't question it. I said you should notice that no one wants to engage with unpleasant tactics and that you're behaving in a way that is counterproductive to your purpose, for example by putting words in my mouth and arguing about that instead.

Well, I'm not advocating that myself. The reason I worded it that way is that a lot of the ire over men/transwomen/whatever term you want to use, in women's spaces, seems to revolve around the presence of a penis. If someone who was born a man no longer has a penis, wants to live as a woman and is an ordinary decent individual not a perv, then I personally don't see an issue with them being in the Ladies. I'm aware there's a massive tide of dissent on this, but that's my personal view.

I'm sorry if I caused you any upset. I hope you're doing ok.

But you don't seem to be able to answer why they can't go about their day using their own sex specific spaces.

I'm sure there must be a good reason, but I've never heard one that isn't some version "they want to be in the opposite sex's spaces and it's mean for people to object".

You told me to stay in my bubble.

Here's Miranda yardley, a transwoman who used to Post here, and his statement submitted to parliament about the importance of single sex services.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18025/pdf/

And yes his, as he couldn't give two hoots about pronouns

Women being strong and forthright is a good thing.

It is, yes.

As I said, they are legally entitled to use those spaces. I am glad you agree.

No, I'm happy to admit that I may have got things wrong last night. I can't read exactly what I wrote but it certainly wasn't my intention to resort to personal attacks. I don't like bullying and I'm quite passionate about standing up against it. It's entirely possible that passion came off as rudeness for which I take full responsibility. It doesn't help me to combat rudeness with rudeness of my own and it certainly doesn't make my point very well.

’No one wants to examine their own behaviour’?

These words are interesting. Do you mean by refusing to see some men as women and lowering boundaries to favour those men?

Consent is personal. Some women may consent to the removal of single sex spaces in favour of men (some of whom have fetishes) , but they don’t really get the right to consent on behalf of all women or tell women who don’t consent that we need to examine our behaviour. That’s perilously close to that male who runs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (whose name escapes me) telling rape victims that they need to reframe their trauma and accept men who say they are women in rape crisis care.

then I personally don't see an issue with them being in the Ladies. I'm aware there's a massive tide of dissent on this, but that's my personal view.

Fine, that's your personal view. Your question was why a person with vagina should mind. This person with a vagina does.

I don't mind if you use it on here. I'm not the thought police. But it does cause me consternation to think of it being done to someone's face, particularly because I have friends in mind who I know would find that heartbreaking.

When have I attacked anyone? Again I ask you why is me just not feeling comfortable with men in my space enough?
I shouldn't need a reason other than I just don't want them there.

You have called people bullies, Now you are saying that we use unpleasant tactics and are behaving unreasonably. No one is putting words in your mouth, people are just asking questions that you can't or won't answer.

As I said, they are legally entitled to use those spaces. I am glad you agree.

I do. You are also free to use them yourself. Pop in at lunchtime if you wish. You don't have special legal dispensation to do so though, just like other males, and it's generally considered disrespectful to women and girls.

No, I'm referring to, as I have been this entire time, to the way women are treated on MN when they commit the crime of not agreeing with you.

But it does cause me consternation to think of it being done to someone's face, particularly because I have friends in mind who I know would find that heartbreaking.

No one is suggesting random street harassment of anyone, that's your straw man. But if I need to acknowledge someone's sex to advocate for my own rights, I will do so. Most of the time it isn't necessary.

You're completely entitled to feel that you don't want X or Y in the toilet with you. If that makes you uncomfortable, then that's how you feel.

You're not entitled to dictate to everyone that they have to agree with your perception of the matter, however. Some women on here don't agree and it isn't because they have issues with their intelligence.

The numbers of men who identify as women and still keep their penis has been posted multiple times it's almost all of them. And again you only get to speak for yourself so YOU don't have a problem with it, but me and others do, you do NOT get to decide that for me and the others. You cannot give away our safe spaces!

Just to repeat this.

It is vital to have single sex provision for women.
If it isn’t vital to anyone else they can happily pee next to each other into the sunset.

But I want single sex provision. I NEED it, in fact. My feelings, and the feelings of the other women who feel the same, are the only argument we need.

So we need toilets/wards/prisons etc for biological women and ONLY biological women, and the rest can share. Good luck and enjoy.

If I go for a smear test and I ask for a woman to do it or chaperone a male doctor and I need to say, "no, I'm sorry, I meant someone female", I will absolutely do that.

No, I didn't think anyone was advocating harassing anyone in the street.

It would be lovely if someone would listen to what I am actually saying.

https://www.attitude.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-women-only-spaces-469056/

Ex lawyer Keir may not agree with you there.

If it isn’t vital to anyone else they can happily pee next to each other into the sunset.

This. Third spaces please, and people can go support their friends there if they wish. Leave women only spaces for the women who require them.