Milk allergy death- should the book be thrown at the staff involved?

[mids2019]

....or if you are minimum wage staff member working in a stressed environment without English as a first language there should be leniency. Doctors are paid for life and death decisions but are Costa staff?

Are you aware that anaphylaxis evolves over time by limiting an allergen, the response changes. With an allergy, you can't predict what the next response might be. Also, it's standard practice to administer both an antihistamine and an epi pen, an epi pen gives you 15 mins break in response but the antihistamine gives a longer course of protection. Have you ever read an allergy plan? Spoken to an immunologist or just decided that it's the parents' fault?

The blame, ignorance, and lack of basic empathy on this thread is shocking.

What about moral obligation? A lunch lady fed my DC their allergen at school. They were 4 at the time and unable to advocate. She then realised and took it back but after they had already eaten some. This was not a school lunch, it was an extra celebratory item given out for end of term. She did not tell any other staff member or responsible adult so that treatment could be administered or my DC could be observed/ parents notified etc. My DC was later sick and we found out when they told me at pick up. We have drilled it into school regarding their allergy but this still happened. A lunch staff member is not well paid but they should nonetheless be obligated to follow best practise, keep children safe, and should a mistake happen follow the necessary steps to mitigate risks. In my opinion this was not just down to human error but a lack of training in procedure/ accountability/ school refusal to enact measures such as a colour coded placemat. We all have a duty of care in society. This shouldn’t just be dependent on harsh penalities but these legal penalties are there for a reason too. There are many ill paid jobs that carry inherent risk/ responsibility as detailed by others on this thread. Costa and other outlets should improve their procedures.

I wish I hadn't read this...

Thank you for your clear and rational comment

I agree about the option to say no.

My point made badly, clearly, was that we expect safety to a degree because we assume a standard. But we also accept human error means there's a statistical margin for death or accident in cars and planes.

But that by contrast severe allergy sufferers expect 100% infallibility and total responsibility on the part of staff in restaurants. Which is unrealistic.

As a barista myself I wouldn't make hot chocolate for someone who has a bad milk allergy. Most chocolate powders contain milk and the spout (milk wand) that heats the milk up, sucks in some milk as well. Even after you flush it out there's still trace amounts in. If you go to heat a glass of water it goes slightly cloudy due to milk inside the wand. And what was the mother thinking? I read the sky news article and she asked the barista to just wash out the jug and then said it was fine that the chocolate powder contains milk. She also refused an epipen from the dentist and went to the chemist for an everyday antihistamine instead.

The mother did say that in her statement that the family had a policy of 'complete avoidance' and that the daughter was diligent about what she ate and would only eat things that had been checked beforehand or cooked by her mother or aunt, and that she'd bring her own ketchup with her and check with staff before ordering stuff and they'd only eat in certain places. She said she was also allergic to eggs but that once Hannah put on latex gloves to cook her some as a surprise....so they did seem very cautious.

But you are prosecuted for dangerous or careless driving, especially if it results in someone's death.

Also, allergy sufferers do know there isn't 100% infallibility on the part of restaurant.! They know that only too well. They try to balance the risks to allow as normal a life as possible. That's what you need to do because you can't lock yourself away.

Staff and an establishment in general should absolutely have the right to refuse service in the case of severe allergy. There would no doubt be cries of discrimination, but you cannot have it both ways.

Once upon a time people made all kinds of excuses not to make premises accessible to physically disabled people. It took a law to force them too.
It seems like we need a similar law for allergies so that people with allergies aren't excluded. Certainly any big business like Costa should be more than able to do this safely.

My family choose day trips that are wheelchair accessible so venues gain 6 entry fees by making it accessible to me

Similarly we choose restaurants that can safely cater for allergies, so venues miss out on a lot of business if they refuse to. And more so as allergies rise in the future

Those saying people with allergies just shouldnt consume food and drink outside their own home - what do you do to ensure events and celebrations etc don't exclude people with allergies? Do you suggest a Christmas activity for work rather than a work meal? Or does the person with an allergy just take a risk/miss out? Same with birthday parties and weddings and things. Yes i tend to send my son with a picnic but it is absolutely shit how much the world revolves around food yet people with allergies are judged if they take any risks in order to join in.

Quite, and you are prosecuted even if you are a minimum wage worker driving between jobs. The responsibility is the same for everyone.

But of course the company could also be responsible if they gave them inadequate training, or too little time between jobs etc.

@WindsurfingDreams and establishments that want to advertise themselves as “allergy friendly” can do so. People with severe egg allergies shouldn’t be going to omelette restaurants and crying foul or discrimination when they get ill. Personal responsibility has fallen to the wayside completely.

I have often wondered about opening a tea room (wont ever happen) but I would make sure I said that I am unable to guarantee any allergy considerations.

A supermarket I often visit make pizzas, baguettes and sub rolls from scratch. They say these products are made in a mixed ingredient environment and we cannot guarantee no cross contamination. They also have two different types of label. One they put on meat and hot and cold snack items sold from the counters which say what the item is and a price and labels that they put on the pizzas, baguettes and sub rolls which state everything in them. It is then up to the customer if they decide to risk eating it or not. I can see more places going that way and placing the responsibility onto the customer.

That doesn't get you around the actual law though. Check out the FSA guidance for businesses.

Which you're not allowed to do.

Ive seen plenty of cafes and restaurants which state clearly that they cannot guarantee that items are not allergen free. Made in an envionrment where there are nuts, milk, eggs, celery and so on present.

Making statements about cross contamination is fine, and helpful.
But saying you won't do anything to consider allergies is illegal. If you want to run a business that sells food to the public, you have to know what is in your food and communicate it to the customer, by law. If you neglect to tell somebody that an allergen is an ingredient in a product, you are liable. You can't just say oh I won't tell you if it's got dairy in or not in case you react to it because we don't cater for allergies.

Well its all theoretical as this is a fantasy tea room but I didnt say I would say I wouldnt do anything to consider allergens or that I wouldnt declare anything

I think the usual hobby of 'making things up that people have said' is taking place here, common on this forum

Exactly.

It's really frustrating that even people who work in the industry don't seem to know this.

It seems like so much more training is needed.

And education for the general public too. My children saying that feeling socially excluded is the absolute worst bit of food allergies. Even just little things like their teacher giving our sweets in class that they can't have (why oh why do teachers think this is ok?!)

It's weird how it is generally accepted that it wouldn't be ok to leave someone out who is physically disabled (as I am) but few people ever think of care about inclusion for people with allergies

Several local cafes have been putting out messages about losing business and possibly closing. Others already have.

I’m sure that it’s difficult to run these businesses but as a family we had already stopped frequenting these particular establishments because of their poor allergy policies. Our friends and families have also stopped because they are inaccessible to us. We choose different places to go now.

I don’t know if families like us really matter in the grand scheme of things, but our spending patterns have drastically changed since becoming a family with allergies. We will travel far and spend more for anything that is inclusive.

Quite. A quick Google suggests nearly 10% of children, and on average 6% of the population in the UK has a food allergy.

Assuming each of those would be eating out with one or two other family members then that's around 18-30% of people who will be picking food outlets that cater for allergies (or just avoiding them and eating at home)

That's a big chunk of business to miss out on

It's probably not a suprise that the chains that have a good reputation for catering for allergies are doing well - wagamama, nandos, Zizzis come to mind as being rated by various allergy sites.

Similarly I am a wheelchair user and when planning activities for all 6 of us this summer we have picked accessible places. That's 6 entry fees they get for catering for one wheelchair user.

@WindsurfingDreams

Right - and at the risk of repeating myself, the operations to deal with allergens in those chain restaurants are v different. I live with a gluten allergy person plus a lactose free person (neither life threatening). We eat in Wagamama and Zizzi frequently for that reason.

The difference - waiting staff specifically ask about allergies, only some staff take the order if you state an allergy, they sometimes bring out an ingredients list, food served has stickers on it etc. There are some operational interventions to try and safeguard. Not remotely the same in a free for all coffee shop.

I was earlier shot down ‘this is not a cross-contamination issue’. Didn’t say it was. I’m saying if you want better protection, there will need to be a complete shift in process at coffee shops, not better passive ‘training’. Also had complaints at the suggestion there needs to be separate stations ‘there’d have to be multiple!’. Yes there would.

We have had this misunderstanding before. Someone gave my daughter ‘dairy free sorbet’ many years ago. I asked 5 times if it was dairy free. Then as she was sat there having a reaction after licking the spoon (she always licks it to make sure it doesn’t hurt her tongue) I asked twice more. Dairy free they said as the ambulance was being called. I emailed after and asked for the ingredients as I assumed she’d become allergic to something else. First ingredient was lactose free milk. I went mad as lactose free milk is not dairy free. One lick of the spoon was enough for her to need an epipen.

She has never eaten sorbet since and doesn’t trust when anyone tells her it is dairy free anymore.

the lack of awareness around allergies is rounding and the lack of understanding of how allergies affect a child and a family is terrible. We always take her food with her now, and often she lives on McDonald’s chips and pasta. What a stressful way to have to live.